| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Blakeyboy1 |
Posted - 12/03/2009 : 18:00:46
I posted on my Escape blog a few days ago about our desire to potentially board a cruise ship and cruise to Hawai'i when we move next summer. It sounded so much nicer than another trip via plane even though it would be more expensive and we would not utilize the entire cruise (we would not use the return trip to LAX). Upon further research it seems it is ILLEGAL to end a cruise at a different US port than one originated at. Am I reading this correctly? It seems a little crazy to me.
Certain countries, such as the U.S., Italy and Norway, have cabotage laws affecting passenger movements. These laws restrict foreign flag passenger vessels (such as those operated by Royal Caribbean) from transporting guests from one port to another port in the same country. In the U.S., the cabotage law applicable to the cruise industry is commonly called the Jones Act but is legally titled the Passengers Services Act. A brief summary of this U.S. law follows:
If a passenger (as listed on a vessel passenger manifest) embarks in a U.S. port and the vessel calls in a nearby foreign port (such as Ensenada, Grand Cayman and Nassau) and then returns to the U.S., the person must disembark in the same U.S. port. A passenger who embarks and disembarks in two different U.S. ports (such as Los Angeles and San Diego) would result in the carrier (not the violator) being fined. The vessel must call in a distant foreign port before the U.S. embarkation and disembarkation ports can differ. The nearest distant foreign ports are in or off the coast of South America. If either the passenger's embarkation port or disembarkation port is in a foreign country, then the provisions of this cabotage law do not apply. Nor do they apply in Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands.
-Blake
http://www.theboysgreatescape.blogspot.com/ |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bob Orts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 17:54:21
quote:
Originally posted by Greg
I guess I'm dense Bob, but I can't for the life of me understand what the "protections" you mention have to do with the Jones act. What does the Jones act have to do with foreign companies operating on US soil? It's about shipping restrictions for foreign countries that would provide competition for Matson, etc.
I don't think you’re dense, at least no more than I am. Since I know what I'm thinking but apparently am not properly saying it, I may be leaving something out that causes confusion. So that I can answer in a way that is understood, I probably need a reference point for your thinking. Since I understand the act, I can't even think of another foreign company (other than another international shipping industry) to use as an example to explain what I mean. Maybe if you come up with a company or specific industry that doesn't have similar protections, I can use that to bring this all together. |
| Greg |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 14:17:35
I guess I'm dense Bob, but I can't for the life of me understand what the "protections" you mention have to do with the Jones act. What does the Jones act have to do with foreign companies operating on US soil? It's about shipping restrictions for foreign countries that would provide competition for Matson, etc.
Who, besides local shippers and unions does the act protect?
I used to eat lunch in a Longshoreman's dive in San Pedro (Utro's-Great burgers) I'd constantly listen to the union dockworkers talk about "showing up for six, working for four, and getting paid for eight". All the while lambasting anyone who would drive a Toyota (which they offloaded!)
Sorry about the hijack.
Blakey, The Transpac yacht race leaves San Pedro every other July for Honolulu. They are always looking for deck monkeys.
Stoneface |
| Blakeyboy1 |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 14:05:56
Bob the scenario you describe is more in line with what I envisioned. I am fairly well traveled and just getting off and saying see ya seemed a little over simplified to me.
-Blake
http://www.theboysgreatescape.blogspot.com/ |
| Bob Orts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 13:22:54
quote:
Originally posted by PaulW
Blake, it doesn't have to be that way. You could offload your luggage in Hilo, explaining that you'll be moving there soon and wanted to save on transport costs. Then on the last day in Hawaii (even if Honolulu) just settle up your bill and say thanks but no thanks, we're getting off here. Maybe even offer to pay the $300 pp fine if the cruise company ever gets hit with it. You may get on the cruise blacklist but oh well.
If you disembark in violation of the PSA, you will be assessed the fine and fees that they are charged for that violation, so add $300 plus to your bill. It’s a condition of your passage that you will pay any fines and fees they are charge for your violation of the PSA.
That means if you tell them, you will be fined the PSA plus cost to clear your departure as a US citizen on US soil. (they can stop you from disembarking until cleared by Homeland Security.)
If you don't tell them, they will assume you failed to report back on board. They notify Immigrations, Homeland Security and the Coast Guard. Until you are located and cleared, all cost associated with that is passed along to you. If the ship is forced to remain at dock and that cost the cruise line money, you pay their cost. The ship may be forced to stay for and hour until they determine your a US citizen and allow the ship to leave while they try to physically locate you and clear you. If it takes a couple of hours for you to be found and cleared, all those cost are passed through to you. That is part of your condition of passage you agree to when you embark.
The PSA fine is $300 and the cost of clearance can be from $1,500 on up, with I think a cap of $5,000 for US citizens (or legal immigrants, and $25,000 for non US citizens.
Grab the calculator and figure out if those costs are worth the effort. And as Paul said, you may be blacklisted from cruises in the future because of it.
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| KathyH |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 12:17:46
Even without all these laws about nationalities and ports of call, United (for example) will sell a cheaper flight that stops over at a preferable destination, and if you get off the plane and don't take the last leg, you lose your return ticket validity and you get on a blacklist. I understand is more complicated with the cruise industry, but sometimes companies just want to package your travel a certain way, and you have to accept the itinerary you buy from them. |
| PaulW |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 11:24:43
Blake, it doesn't have to be that way. You could offload your luggage in Hilo, explaining that you'll be moving there soon and wanted to save on transport costs. Then on the last day in Hawaii (even if Honolulu) just settle up your bill and say thanks but no thanks, we're getting off here. Maybe even offer to pay the $300 pp fine if the cruise company ever gets hit with it. You may get on the cruise blacklist but oh well. |
| Blakeyboy1 |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 09:46:10
quote:
Originally posted by Del Pranke
Blakeboy1, I'm not trying to start an argument here, but it sounds like you are listening to the coconut wireless for some of your information. Think about this. If you took a cruise from Seattle to San Diego, got off the ship and decided on the spot that you were going to stay, which branch of law enforcement would come and make you get back on the ship? Who would hunt you down and deport you back to Seattle? Sometimes we think that because Hawaii is an island state that there are different rules here. No one can make you finish a cruise if you don't want to do so. You won't get a refund for the second part of the cruise, but you can't be extradited for non criminal acts.
Don't think that I did not think about this but do you not think that it will raise some eyebrows if we try to disembark with all of our luggage? I also suspect it might cause some issues when they realize we are missing from the ship if we just don't get back on and don't tell anyone. I can't imagine they like it so much when they notify authorities about missing passengers and everyone spends some time searching for us.
Rob - interesting idea. I'd kind of like to see the garbage patch in a way and in another way I think it would make me quite sick to see it.
-Blake
http://www.theboysgreatescape.blogspot.com/ |
| Bob Orts |
Posted - 12/09/2009 : 09:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by mr._dog
Bob, I just named my industry, print media and publishing. I know it, and the far east and mexican competition very well. Where's the protection?
quote:
Originally posted by Greg
How about the landscape foliage industry? That's one with a local impact. Because of the Jones act, Hawaiian Nurserys are at the mercy of Matson and Young brothers, who have no competition.
The Landscape industry itself has a lot of competition from the lower Americas. These latin companies also benefit from inexpensive labor. As far as I know, their counterparts ship their plants to the US in trucks from Mexico and Central America.
Are they offered any protection? Tarifs or whatnot?
Here are your similar protections.
In both cases you mention foreign competition. Now imagine if those foreign companies decided to operate in the USA. Now imagine if they could hire their local people from their local country and pay them wages based on their country, not the US. Imagine if they were not required to obtain business licenses in the US. Now imagine if they did not have to pay US taxes on their income. Now imagine if they bought some land for the business but were able to bring over tin sheds with tar paper roofs, built to their country standard not ours, on a barge and plop it down next to your business and use it for their operation. Imagine that foreign company directly competing with you on US soil but operating under the laws and practices of their country.
As it currently stands, laws of the USA prohibits and protects the print media and landscape foliage industry from foreign companies operating in the USA unless they adhere to US (and local state) law for their business. Those foreign companies can not establish a company on US soil and complete directly in commerce against US businesses by following the laws of their country and not the laws of the USA.
So, I have to ask, since you have all those protections, why shouldn’t the US shipping industry have the exact same protections you enjoy for your industry and job? |
| Del Pranke |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 21:35:02
Blakeboy1, I'm not trying to start an argument here, but it sounds like you are listening to the coconut wireless for some of your information. Think about this. If you took a cruise from Seattle to San Diego, got off the ship and decided on the spot that you were going to stay, which branch of law enforcement would come and make you get back on the ship? Who would hunt you down and deport you back to Seattle? Sometimes we think that because Hawaii is an island state that there are different rules here. No one can make you finish a cruise if you don't want to do so. You won't get a refund for the second part of the cruise, but you can't be extradited for non criminal acts. |
| Greg |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 21:29:48
How about the landscape foliage industry? That's one with a local impact. Because of the Jones act, Hawaiian Nurserys are at the mercy of Matson and Young brothers, who have no competition.
The Landscape industry itself has a lot of competition from the lower Americas. These latin companies also benefit from inexpensive labor. As far as I know, their counterparts ship their plants to the US in trucks from Mexico and Central America.
Are they offered any protection? Tarifs or whatnot?
Stoneface |
| mr._dog |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 20:43:21
Bob, I just named my industry, print media and publishing. I know it, and the far east and mexican competition very well. Where's the protection?
"nothing in this universe makes sense. Its not supposed to... You get to construct your own concepts if you are lucky... Unlucky if you believe what some one else tells you is the truth." |
| Bob Orts |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 20:21:54
The Jones Act is actually several pieces of legislation. Only two of them are commonly discussed.
The first is the issue of US flagged vessels concerning shipbuilding and ownership. I do disagree with the shipbuilding requirement but do agree with the ownership requirement. Many industries in the US have similar ownership requirements. And, those industries that don't have it, you hear people always saying its a bad thing to have so much control of US corporations in foreign hands.
The second is the issue most discussed and that is the prohibition on foreign flagged ships from conducting commerce in the US. Reality is every industry in the US has similar protections. There are only four exemptions. 1. Foreign governments. 2. Very specific and rare special needs. 3. International organizations, 4. International transportation. Otherwise every single industry has their own version of legislation like the Jones Act.
For the most part, people want that protection because those industries are industries that personally provided for them. They may themselves or may have family or friends that benefit from that protection. Or most times, they just know it’s the right thing. So they wont even mention or question it. It doesn’t matter if it raises cost 10, 100, or 1,000 percent, they benefit so they want it. As a matter of fact, attempt to remove that protection and they go ballistic.
If the issue is the Jones Act adds cost and needs to be eliminated, every single industry should have similar protections eliminated as well. I don’t think the average person realizes how much protectionism other industries enjoy. Like I said, name an industry or job and I’ll show a similar Jones Act protection they have.
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| mr._dog |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 19:54:39
well Bob, it is my understanding that the original intention of the jones act was to promote the US shipbuilding industry, in 1929. Do we have a measurable shipbuilding industry now? this law keeps matson and horizon competition free, labor unions happy, costs every family in hawaii, american samoa, guam, peurto rico the equivalent of a (mainland) college education, consumes excessive energy, and deteriorates the federal highway system...can you please tell us what good it does?
and I'm in the publishing industry... I don't see any federal welfare for us
"nothing in this universe makes sense. Its not supposed to... You get to construct your own concepts if you are lucky... Unlucky if you believe what some one else tells you is the truth." |
| pslamont |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 19:48:19
What exactly is the Jones act protects us Hawaiian residents from? Lower shipping costs yielding lowered cost of goods from Asia? That helps us how again?
I want to be the kind of woman that, when my feet
hit the floor each morning, the devil says
"Oh Crap, She's up!"
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| Bob Orts |
Posted - 12/08/2009 : 19:30:30
I hear everyone complaining about the "Jones Act" but I bet your work is protected by a similar version that applies to you industry. I wonder how many people would be complaining about the Jones Act if the protections of Jones Act style legislation were eliminated on all commerce that is now protected. People will be screaming and pitching a stink. Name any industry and I'll show you how a "Jones Act" style regulation protects you and imagine what it would be like if it wasn’t there.
It's so easy to complain when your targeting protections on something that doesn't cause you to be behind the eight ball, but have your protections eliminated and watch how people go from bitchers of these rules to beggars for even tougher ones. |
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