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PaulW
Punatic

5747 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2018 :  16:01:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree! While we're at it, let's ban those dangerous cars and all walk again, anything else is laziness.
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ElysianWort
Punatic

USA
1749 Posts

Posted - 06/30/2018 :  23:06:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didn't say I was a mennonite. My old world beliefs don't extend to transportation. Cars kill us in a different manner from pesticides.
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MarkP
Punatic

2341 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  01:45:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ElysianWort:
IMO you have no idea what you are saying. Turning back the clock to manual labor without the benefit of modern agricultural chemicals would result widespread starvation. Now maybe that is necessary for true sustainability but I don't think you will get that many volunteers.

There is a veterinary anti-inflamatory drug that unfortunately is deadly to vultures. Its widespread use in India in particular where they tend to use oxen to plow and tend to let nature take its course when the animal dies has resulted in the near extinction of many common vulture species when they consume the tainted carcass. In a cascade effect the number of feral dogs has skyrocketed. Dogs carry rabies and bite people. Vultures don't. Now THAT's an example of a chemical that should be squashed. It is important to not be the boy that cried wolf over every internet generated cause celebre lest the real threats get lost in the noise.

Edited by - MarkP on 07/01/2018 01:54:19
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Midnight Rambler
Punatic

USA
1083 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  06:00:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Non-Hodgkins lymphoma is pretty common, so it seems like it would be hard to tie to glyphosate exposure.

quote:
Originally posted by ElysianWort

Nothing in it's place. Go back to the Pioneer style farming where you fed your family and anyone around in the neighborhood that wanted to trade farm produce for other goods and services.#8236;


Also, say goodbye to nearly all science, technology, and art (because there’s not enough of a food surplus to support that many non-farming people), and go back to a global population of 500 million. Who gets to decide if you make the cut?

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that pioneer-era farming used an array of horribly toxic substances for pest control, like lead arsenate (great combination of elements). Modern chemicals were developed precisely because they’re safer! Something that has a 5% chance of giving you cancer if you get it all over yourself every day for 20 years is a big improvement over something that will kill you immediately if a few drops get on your skin.
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ElysianWort
Punatic

USA
1749 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  06:10:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mark. I know exactly what I'm saying. I remember posting it yesterday, and I knew it would still be posted today and I don't want to change it. I still meant what I said.

Also notice that it inserted the words, (in my opinion). Never said it was fact. (Even though people will soon find out it is fact). So again, I KNOW what I'm saying and apparently you don't agree. Cool. You and many others. Also there are many out there who do agree. Whole countries.

Mark, boy who cried wolf? That sounds foolish and a stretch from someone who "thinks" they know the facts. Maybe boy who intends to lift wool off of eyes. Again I said opinion. Also what about:

Sri Lanka. This is a third world country that you would think wants the advancements in technology to, as you said, prevent "widespread starvation" WRONG. They BANNED Roundup.

http://www.healthfreedoms.org/sri-lanka-first-country-to-ban-monsantos-glyphosate-due-to-study-on-chronic-kidney-disease/

The study found that while the weedicide itself is not nephrotoxic, when it combines with hard ground water containing metals such as cadmium and arsenic, either naturally present in the soil or added through fertilizer, glyphosate becomes extremely toxic to the kidney. In recent years a significant increase in the number of CKD patients has been observed in some parts of the country

Bermuda
Sri Lanka
Colombia
El Salvador
France
Germany
Kuwait
Qatar
Saudi Arabia
Netherlands etc. etc. There are more...

Just a few of the ENTIRE countries that don't use it anymore.
Is there mass starvation there now Mark?

But those are foreign countries. Not USA, we're greater and know better. Yeah! Lets soak our foods with chemical glycophosphates and eat the hell out of them!! Start with GMO corn on the cob eating party!! Their scientists don't know what they are talking about.


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ElysianWort
Punatic

USA
1749 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  06:34:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Midnight Rambler you have some interesting points: "who decides who makes the cut"

Science and nature decide. A world with a smaller population sounds appealing.

Where there is an excess of food there is overpopulation. Put an endless supply of food in a limited space filled with rats or other animals and see what happens: usually they start killing each other.

With less food out there available more and more people would have to give up their cooperate jobs, hang up the suit and tie and take out the garden hoe. ( I think that's a good thing )

Also kidney disease is pretty common too and maybe hard to tie to glycophosphate too but apparently there was enough of a correlation for entire countries to ban it.
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Midnight Rambler
Punatic

USA
1083 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  07:02:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If there is cadmium or arsenic in the water or soil, you have bigger problems to worry about than glyphosate.

With less food out there available more and more people would have to give up their cooperate jobs, hang up the suit and tie and take out the garden hoe. ( I think that's a good thing )

The Khmer Rouge already tried this. It didn’t go so well.

Edited by - Midnight Rambler on 07/01/2018 07:04:04
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PaulW
Punatic

5747 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  07:30:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
EW, I checked a few of those ENTIRE countries that have supposedly banned roundup and what a surprise, it’s not true. E.g. France, Germany, Holland.
Please back up your “facts” when you post them, with *reputable* websites.
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ElysianWort
Punatic

USA
1749 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  07:36:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"The European Parliament, representing 28 countries and more than 500 million people, voted Tuesday in support of phasing out glyphosate over the next five years and immediately banning its use in households."

500 million votes to ban it.

Nah lets scoff at that piddly amount of people with their opinion.

https://www.ecowatch.com/european-parliament-ban-glyphosate-2500863218.html

"EW, I checked a few of those ENTIRE countries that have supposedly banned roundup and what a surprise, it’s not true. E.g. France, Germany, Holland.
Please back up your “facts” when you post them, with *reputable* websites."

Paul: Sorry maybe I am mistaken. Got that info here:

https://www.organicconsumers.org/news/germany-13-other-countries-say-no-glyphosate-what-about-us

Also did I say Holland or just you?

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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
9006 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  07:38:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
With less food out there available more and more people would have to give up their cooperate jobs

There are many ways that scenario could play out.
Here’s one:
Vast segments of the population quit their corporate jobs. They now have less money to support themselves so they look for low cost places to live - - like Puna. With hoe and shovel in hand (after finding soil somewhere) they begin gardening. Most of what they grow is devoured by insects (few pesticides available), so they’re forced to eat everything that remains slightly edible, but it’s really hard getting all those slugs and snails out of the salad greens without pesticides - - so most of the new pioneers, as well as now laid off local ex-Federal/State/County workers (due to loss of corporate taxes & highly paid corporate worker taxes) get rat lungworm disease.

Problem solved, population stabilized.
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ElysianWort
Punatic

USA
1749 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  07:39:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ah Netherlands/ Holland. got it.
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ElysianWort
Punatic

USA
1749 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  07:45:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OOh HOTPE that isn't a very pretty picture painted. One version of a speculative future.

Well I'm close to exceeding my daily allowed number of posts so have a beautiful Sunday everyone. No hard feelings, just my vision of a better future for man-kind.

Of course there's the possibility my vision could cause the world would descend into darkness and chaos run rampant if such changes really happened...oh wait is it already that scenario in some places?
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PaulW
Punatic

5747 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  08:02:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What 500 million votes? This is why I said *reputable* websites.
Europe is not a country, something Ecowatch doesn’t seem to realize.
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MarkP
Punatic

2341 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  09:55:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Found this:

" Response from Dan Goldstein, Senior Science Fellow and Lead, Medical Sciences and Outreach, Monsanto Company · Thursday, 5/15/2014 5:42 pm

Update: May 29, 2015



Chronic kidney disease of unknown cause (CKDu) has been a significant health issue in parts of Sri Lanka for many years. The reasons for this have been explored at length by World Health Organization and by other experts and organizations in Sri Lanka and in other locations, and no clear cause has emerged. There is no evidence that glyphosate causes or contributes to kidney failure in humans or animals. Many other statistical risk factors have been proposed, but none are proven to be causally related at this time despite decades of effort. These include, for example, exposure to metals or to fluoride, snake bite, dehydration, and use of non-prescription analgesics; and a recent publication documents that genetic predisposition may account for a substantial portion of CKDu risk.



In March of 2014, Jayasumana et al published a theory that glyphosate interacts with another factor in the environment and proposed that a combination of glyphosate with arsenic, other heavy metals, or some unknown material results -- by some unknown means -- in kidney injury. Despite a lack of evidence for causation, a ban on glyphosate use was proposed in response to this paper, but was not implemented. Rather, restrictions on glyphosate use were considered in specific regions where CKDu occurs. A panel of experts was convened to determine where restrictions should be imposed and what those restrictions should be. On May 13, 2014, the Ministry of Agriculture announced that efforts to ban glyphosate had been suspended, citing a lack of evidence. (This article states the ban was “lifted,” we do not believe it was ever officially in place and certainly was not implemented as import or use restrictions had not been observed in the field.)



On December 22, 2014, notice was posted in The Gazette of the Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka (their official document of record) banning glyphosate as well as other agents (propanil, carbaryl, chlorpyrifos, and carbofuran in four Districts and in three Divisions of a fifth District of the country (Anuradhapura, Polonnaruwa, Kurunegala, Moneragala and parts of Badulla). In late May 2015, we became aware of a decision to restrict the use of glyphosate throughout Sri Lanka with exceptions made only for specific types of plantation operations. We have no additional information regarding scientific or political events precipitating this action."

So after a fashion Sri Lanka restricted use of glyphosate as a desperate knee-jerk measure because they have a uniquely high level of kidney failure and don't know why. Admittedly this is a Monsanto guy pleading the case for glyphosate. Wish it was somebody more independent. Nevertheless I see no smoking gun.

Edited by - MarkP on 07/01/2018 09:58:14
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MBB
malihini

USA
75 Posts

Posted - 07/01/2018 :  10:49:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have been reading this thread with interest.

The problem is much deeper that using Roundup to spray and control weeds.

The use of Roundup with herbicide resistant crops ( HRC)such as soybeans, corn etc whereby crops are sprayed with Roundup to kill weeds but the crop survives. These crops are genetically altered ; they are able to withstand how Roundup kills weeds by inhibiting enzyme that interferes with protein production so that weed dies. Ok, so plants have this enzyme but animals and humans do not have this enzyme pathway THEREFORE Roundup is perfectly safe to use ( Monsanto, FDA) ...HOWEVER bacteria do use the pathway that roundup interferes with....so what difference does that make?

Well, the trillions of beneficial bacteria in our gut that are now known to be critical for physical and mental health MAY be killed by the roundup ready crops we are eating or foods that contain high fructose corn syrup made from roundup resistant corn. I don't know the evidence studies ( I don't have the time or the inclination to look for these) but the evolving literature being reported in non scientific media quickly convinces me that there is mounting evidence to suggest ,at least, that more studies are needed before we claim upmost safety of Roundup. Of course the question that begs to be answered is why wasn't the studies done before Roundup was released, isn't that how it is supposed to work?

These are not crops that we have been eating for hundreds of years so we know all the health effects, Roundup ready corn, I believe( would have to look up exact year), was introduced around 1996, a mere 22 years ago.....

I always go back to cigarette smoking; how makers of cigarettes and their supporters claimed that cigarettes were perfectly safe. Until they weren't.

Will Roundup be found to be perfectly safe or detrimental to human health, only persistence and time will tell.
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