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TomK
Punatic

USA
8397 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2019 :  00:05:50  Show Profile  Visit TomK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
"Not want to see them denied access to their Mauna?"

The TMT will not deny access to the mountain to anyone. This is an argument that keeps being thrown around and is completely untrue. The observatories have actually given people more access to the mountain.
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MarkP
Punatic

2272 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2019 :  00:21:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Can I not at the same time understand the Hawaiian culture? What is important to them? Not want to see them denied access to their Mauna?Be an environmentalist? And be sick and tired of this State's natural resources being sold to big business?"

None of these are issues at stake WRT the TMT.
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reni
Kamaaina

678 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2019 :  08:19:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"The observatories have actually given people more access to the mountain."
agreed Tom. And it would not be the observatories blocking access to the summit if the Emergency Proclamation were to be reestablished. Maybe others can see a different path to construction starting,
(I for one do not put much faith in our government leaders successfully negotiating with the protestors. )

This morning there was an article in civil beat. Topic, the ELT currently under construction in Chile.

"A consortium of 16 European nations has already begun construction in Chile on the similar but considerably larger (39.3 meters) Extremely Large Telescope."

https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/will-the-tmt-really-contribute-to-astronomy/

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kalakoa
Motormouth

12276 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2019 :  08:32:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the ELT currently under construction in Chile

Chile is south of the equator, permanently unable to see things that are visible here.
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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8167 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2019 :  08:55:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Chile is ... permanently unable to see things that are visible here.

Maybe that's the protestors' plan.
Get enough people packed into the Access Road turnoff, their combined weight will spin the Earth in a way the ELT can view the entire sky. Problem solved.
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bananahead
Punatic

USA
1159 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2019 :  12:01:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
.... because they dont grow on trees....

******************************************************************
save our indigenous and endemic Hawaiian Plants... learn about them, grow them, and plant them on your property, ....instead of all that invasive non-native garbage I see in most yards... aloha
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bananahead
Punatic

USA
1159 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2019 :  12:06:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
superior or inferior??? lol

Canary Island site..... 6,000' elevation
Mauna Kea site ....13,300' elevation, ...with cleanest air in World

7,300' difference...
IOW the site in the Canaries is a few hundred feet lower than the intersection on Saddle Rd where the TMT Bandwagoners are...



******************************************************************
save our indigenous and endemic Hawaiian Plants... learn about them, grow them, and plant them on your property, ....instead of all that invasive non-native garbage I see in most yards... aloha
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randomq
Punatic

USA
1682 Posts

Posted - 08/12/2019 :  13:16:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
bananahead, you are preaching to the choir. With activists saying "we already have telescopes up there, why do we need more" I think the level of discourse is below sea level and sinking.
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glassnumbers
Da Kine

USA
397 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2019 :  11:33:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey guys, don't feel too terrible, you've convinced me, at least. If its more ecofriendly and works better, the only reason not to support the TMT is fear or ignorance or both. The reason being that the older telescopes have more chance to cause environmental problems, so its just a no brainer to put double-hulled ones up there instead of the older models. Honestly, from that perspective, which is ...true, the older models, do, in fact, have a much greater chance of leaking...They should replace ALL of the old telescopes, they shouldn't stop with TMT.

Aloha :)

Edited by - glassnumbers on 08/13/2019 11:34:06
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TomK
Punatic

USA
8397 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2019 :  21:24:04  Show Profile  Visit TomK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You make it sound like the existing observatories are leaky rust-buckets which couldn't be further from the truth.
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TomK
Punatic

USA
8397 Posts

Posted - 08/13/2019 :  23:14:51  Show Profile  Visit TomK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
reni - as others have pointed out, the ELT is being built in Chile which is in the southern hemisphere. Although building the TMT in Chile wouldn't be completely pointless, it, like the ELT, won't be able to observe the northern sky, so half the observable universe would remain unobservable by a giant telescope. Perhaps you think that's irrelevant?
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Frank
Kamaaina

936 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2019 :  07:56:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is the Northern sky more important than the Southern sky? If so, what exactly is more Important in the Northern sky?
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kalakoa
Motormouth

12276 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2019 :  08:08:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
what exactly is more Important in the Northern sky?

Having both is more important. Would you pluck out one eye simply because the other is "more important"? Sure, you woudln't be completely blind, but you would have to do without depth perception.
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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8167 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2019 :  08:43:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is the Northern sky more important than the Southern sky?

Can you divide the study of a (more or less) infinite universe in half?
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Frank
Kamaaina

936 Posts

Posted - 08/14/2019 :  08:44:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@kalakoa...Having both is more important.

So, TMT will see both Northern and Southern skys?
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