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Page: of 68

bystander
Kamaaina

756 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  14:05:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They should just have a special election to settle the matter.
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kalakoa
Motormouth

12431 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  14:13:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
just have a special election

Kingdom is already ignoring State Supreme Court, they'll just ignore this too -- unless the popular vote is against TMT, in which case the rule of law is valid.
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kalakoa
Motormouth

12431 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  15:41:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://www.kitv.com/story/40885420/local-contractors-lose-revenue-during-mauna-kea-demonstrations

According to Mauna Kea Observatories scheduled projects on the summit are on hold for now. MKO says $4 million worth of vendor and construction contracts were awarded to more than a hundred companies that employ local staff.

Who needs jobs when there's a free campsite with free food and everything.
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ironyak
Punatic

USA
3084 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  16:02:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@Kaimana - (just keep scrolling rainyjim)
Here's the Senate's roll-call vote on the Newlands Resolution (Jul 6 1898). Note most of the abstentions were from people not present or those who were paired with such as they would be voting opposite. This explains the exact details of the abstained votes and the final tally. Also lots of interesting discussion in the proceeding debate and proposed amendments starting on page 5.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-CRECB-1898-pt7-v31/pdf/GPO-CRECB-1898-pt7-v31-20-1.pdf (page 24 in the PDF)
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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8315 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  16:04:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also agreed that for many involved, the notion of "an illegal" or "no treaty" annexation is central.

If you believe a treaty between the US & the Hawaiian Monarchy would in some way affect the situation we’re in today, look at how the US respected and complied with the hundreds of agreements they signed between native peoples and our government. Very few are considered law today, if anything they’re viewed as quaint historical relics. I doubt a treaty with the Hawaiian Monarchy in the 1800’s would be recognized any differently if one existed.

https://native-land.ca
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ironyak
Punatic

USA
3084 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  16:15:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
@HOTPE - The issue is that the Newlands Resolution that annexed Hawaii was done through a Joint Resolution (House & Senate), and not a treaty (done with just the 2/3rds consent of the Senate, as was the general practice). So the argument was, and is, that it was not constitutional to annex Hawaii (with which the vast majority of the 55th Congress and President McKinley disagreed). The argument doesn't revolve around any of the treaties between the Hawaiian Kingdom and the United States.
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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8315 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  16:50:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The argument doesn't revolve around any of the treaties

Yes, I understand. Someone on a previous page had suggested a treaty wasn’t possible, or couldn’t pass the US Congress and a resolution was a weaker substitute. I wanted to point out that even if a treaty had been passed, it probably wouldn’t mean anything today based the the federal government’s pitiful past record.
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ironyak
Punatic

USA
3084 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  18:40:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gotcha - yeah, treaties that acquired territory tended to be upheld and enforced while those that limited territorial acquisitions tended to be ignored or overruled. Selectively choosing which laws to follow to benefit your position wasn't invented yesterday (or last month).
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reni
Kamaaina

694 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  20:05:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"it probably wouldn’t mean anything today based the the federal government’s pitiful past record"
------------------------------------------------
Maybe not to the current U.S. gov. or most American citizens ,

But it does HOTPE. It matters to the United Nations and it matters to many ...not just the Hawaiians that have been educated in our Hawaiian Immersion Schools and our very own U. Of H.
Take a look at the professors today, what they teach. It's more than just law.
"Ethics",Righting past wrongs is a big theme in our culture today.
Very much alive on U. S. campuses, including our own.
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Kaimana
Da Kine

337 Posts

Posted - 08/08/2019 :  20:28:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ironyak- YOU ARE THE MAN!!!(or woman) I've been looking for this but everywhere I went it only went back to 1900 or only had the vote but not the actual transcripts. Mahalo.

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MarkP
Punatic

2280 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2019 :  02:52:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Righting past wrongs is a worthy goal but only if you can do so without doing more wrong.
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ironyak
Punatic

USA
3084 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2019 :  09:27:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have to ask reni, given your depth of knowledge of the subject, how exactly do you see the U.N. fitting into the equation? Even if the U.N. was to make some formal recognition of the situation (which they are unlikely to do given the skeletons in all the closets of the major powers), the U.S. hasn't been receptive to any such censure and has told the ICC to get stuffed. So what exactly is the U.N.'s role in your view?

(If this is easier done in another thread, feel free to start one. Probably tortured rainyjim long enough with the inconvenience of any historical knowledge or perspective on these events. ;)
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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8315 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2019 :  10:44:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
West Hawaii Today has an excellent list of false claims made by protestors, and a short explanation of the truth about each one. A perfect link for your social media posts whenever you read yet another deception.
They even give credit where credit is due, to celebrities for spreading the falsehoods and misinformation:

Some opposition to the Thirty Meter Telescope is being fueled by prominent people — celebrities, musicians and politicians — who have offered their support to the Maunakea “protectors” via social media.

However, as opposing voices gain traction online, so do several misconceptions or untruths about the TMT project itself, making it hard for those unfamiliar with the issue to sort fact from fiction. Here is a collection of some of the myths versus the facts about the telescope.


https://www.westhawaiitoday.com/2019/08/18/hawaii-news/debunking-oft-cited-claims-abut-tmt/
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kalakoa
Motormouth

12431 Posts

Posted - 08/18/2019 :  10:59:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
false claims made by protestors, and a short explanation of the truth

The biggest, most obvious truth can be seen in State's inaction.

Consider: who benefits if TMT leaves?
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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8315 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2019 :  06:57:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Of the 38 people arrested on the first day of the protests, nine will be in court today. Stay tuned.
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