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 TMT construction begins Monday 15 July
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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8430 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2019 :  19:56:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From TomK’s link, we have an award winning author comparing the historical trauma of Hawaiians with the Holocaust.

Award-winning author Mark Panek focused his testimony on cultural trauma...
“It’s a little embarrassing, maybe, to say that this is also the most academically productive place on planet Earth to study the effects of historical trauma on indigenous people,” a statement that drew appreciative applause from the crowd.

“We study historical trauma so we don’t repeat the Holocaust,”


I don’t understand his last statement. If we want to prevent another Holocaust, wouldn’t we study those who caused it, Hitler and early 20th century Germans? If we don’t want to repeat the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom, wouldn’t we then study the perpetrators, the American business interests?
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kalakoa
Motormouth

12596 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2019 :  20:15:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Historical trauma is just an excuse given to avoid taking personal responsibility. These people want to keep blaming past events instead of doing something with their lives.

That said, if we're going to take this "trauma" seriously, how about sequencing the DNA of every protestor and testifier in order to determine their level of entitlement to the alleged trauma of these historical events?

For what it's worth, I definitely suffer from historical trauma -- but instead of wallowing in it and demanding that everyone cease all progress while they share in my suffering, I did something with my life.

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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8430 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2019 :  13:20:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One of the protestors who has individually and collectively cost taxpayers and Hawaii keiki about $11 million at last count (estimated), complains that the contributions from the TMT and extended astronomy community on Big Island aren't a "benefit to our community:"

Noe Noe Wong-Wilson, one of the leaders of the Kiai #8213; who call themselves protectors and not protesters at Mauna Kea #8213; believes TMT’s economic benefits are “grossly overstated.”

“That’s chicken feed. I’m sorry. That’s not going to provide the benefit, the overall benefit to our community,” she said.


The article also describes a "somber" mood among businesses on Hawaii Island, who have felt the affects of the extended protest:
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/11/08/hawaii-island-businesses-somber-over-tmt-stalemate-mauna-kea/
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randomq
Punatic

USA
1867 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2019 :  16:23:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
$300-400 million in local construction, and ~$90 million a year going into our economy, in addition to the ~$170 million per year all the other telescopes contribute. "Chicken feed". What a smart lady.
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TomK
Punatic

USA
8578 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2019 :  19:53:51  Show Profile  Visit TomK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You also need to add in all the educational effort the observatory staff put in which is pretty hard to put a price on. Giving young people opportunities to learn about science and technology takes a lot of time and money and we've seen many stories in the local media about how Hawaiian students, of all ages, have benefitted from those opportunities. And of course the $1 rent had to be brought up again and ignored the fact that 15% of the MK Observatories costs go to the University of Hawaii and its STEM courses. Several million dollars worth every year.
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dan d
Punatic

USA
1132 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2019 :  05:18:29  Show Profile  Visit dan d's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Chicken feed is expensive.she ment chump change.


HPP
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geochem
Kamaaina

USA
733 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2019 :  07:36:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge

....

The article also describes a "somber" mood among businesses on Hawaii Island, who have felt the affects of the extended protest:
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/11/08/hawaii-island-businesses-somber-over-tmt-stalemate-mauna-kea/




More a question for TomK: the HawaiiNewsNow article again cites the $1/yr lease rate for some of the telescopes - which we know is a mis-characterization of the leases... Has anyone calculated the value of the telescope time that is made available to UH (based on the rates charged to other institutions) or of the value of the grants that have been brought in by UH Astronomy faculty and staff to support the science being done with that viewing time? I'd guess that that time has generated far more income to the University than what TMT is paying in direct rent. (I guess the downside of doing that calculation, though, is that it might bring OHA to the table demanding their blood money)... Of that grant income to the University, a significant fraction supports all University services (internet access, library operations/subscriptions/acquisitions) and benefits all students, not just the Astronomy program...
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TomK
Punatic

USA
8578 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2019 :  18:22:45  Show Profile  Visit TomK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
geochem - I will do the research, but suspect you're looking at $10-15 million in observation time given to UH. That doesn't include the costs of the MK observatories' outreach.
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geochem
Kamaaina

USA
733 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2019 :  10:54:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi TomK,
I think it would be a good idea to get a fix on both the value of the observing time and the related grants funding generated - and every time the bs artists cite the $1 per year, respond with those numbers. It would also be quite interesting to see what the $1million rental fees paid to UH will "cost" the University in terms of lost grant funding on a comparative basis.
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rainyjim
Punatic

2081 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2019 :  11:07:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don’t think you can say anything to them that would make them consider changing their position- except maybe ‘you’re going to jail’
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HereOnThePrimalEdge
Punatic

South Sandwich Islands
8430 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2019 :  11:13:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
‘you’re going to jail’

In a news article recently it described how the protestors are hunkering down for the winter. It also mentioned on the day the reporter visited there were about 50 protestors remaining. If that number is correct, for comparison, I believe Oahu police arrested more than that at the wind farm protest over several days.
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kalakoa
Motormouth

12596 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2019 :  11:40:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
how the protestors are hunkering down for the winter

Those big tents require permits per HCC 5-1.0.8(18)(c). The camp doesn't appear to be ADA-compliant, someone needs to call the Feds on that one.

Has anyone calculated the value of the telescope time

Yes, this needs to be converted to dollars so that everyone can calculate their cut. There are probably some tax implications too.
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TomK
Punatic

USA
8578 Posts

Posted - 11/10/2019 :  20:08:17  Show Profile  Visit TomK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Geochem,

Latest I can find, and might not be completely up-to-date, is $90 million operating costs for the MK Observatories. 15% of that is $13.5 million, so that's roughly the rent the observatories pay annually. In addition, it seems the IfA's budget is about $20 million of which $15 million is from federal grants and suspect the other $5 million comes from non-federal sources.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the $1 million going to the university if you mean the TMT. That $1 million will not all be going to the university. OHA will have their share.
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