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+--- Thread: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access (/showthread.php?tid=16163)
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - opihikao - 07-15-2015
HOTPE states:
The TMT went through a 7 year permitting process, during which time everyone had an opportunity to make their concerns known.
Yes they did, however, several thousands (61,000 on last petition, as an example) feel they are, again, not being heard. Some have been fighting telescopes on Mauna Kea for decades, not just TMT for seven years.
Typical government shoving aside the people who dare to question them, for the "greater good". Unfortunately, as Richard Ha calls us, "the rubber slippa folk" have gained little to date, while the "chosen few" gained plenty.
At this point, it (TMT) is a done deal, road is open, let the chips fall where they may. Akua be with us all.
JMO.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - Guest - 07-15-2015
Looks like some of the other local dirt roads atop maunakea have been blocked by some very large boulders recently. Also the emergency restrictions being made up to make life harder for the people protecting Maunakea are now in place. All these measures and more to come are simply just trying to bring the numbers of cultural practicing protesters off their mauna,jmo.
Although many expressed their opinions at the last board meeting, only a few were actually listened to (not surprising). The hand picked Ambercrombie puppet (Stanley Roehrig) admitted he did not really want to be on this board until asked by the then Gov. He was told or asked to help with the ROCK in Ambercrombies shoe, as he states? He only seemed to care about what the DLNR officer in charge had to say about the issue and if the gentleman had been up on the mountain personally during the standoff. Well the Dlnr have that joker in their pocket, he will make sure he has the backs of the officers. Jmo, This Board that Stanley Roehrig runs is a load of crap that should be dismantled and held accountable for their decisions against the majority.
Jmo, Kapu Aloha has been the peoples choice to this point, newly imposed restrictions with the same disrespect may start changing the playing field's numbers, not the intentions. Forget about the common ground ideas, forget about the free passes to the summit. As others have stated before, it is time to circle the wagons. No way, this (Ambercrombie-Roehrig- Akaka) led TMT project will silence, replace, or cast any shadows over our beloved Hawaiian peoples history(piko). Really Looking forward to the next sunrise atop maunakea with friends and family.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - rainyjim - 07-15-2015
The protestors need to practice some aloha by realizing that they exist as a part of society. They demand others to recognize them while failing to recognize others themselves. Asking the rest of the world to sacrifice for their gain is just plain selfish. They need to realize that its not just about them they represent a small minority in Hawaii.
I doubt they realize how selfish they are acting. Its like one child claiming a 'jungle gym' for themselves and refusing to allow any other children access to the 'jungle gym' because it is 'their' gym. Really, the planet belongs to all of us we have to share and more importantly it is state land and our laws say the TMT can be there.
I feel like they all need to go back to school and learn simple things like sharing, how the government works, and in general how to get a job. If they had jobs they wouldn't have time for this nonsense - they'd have to be at work!
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - kimo wires - 07-15-2015
Done Deal. What's next?
http://hawaiitribune-herald.com/news/local-news/ige-signs-mauna-kea-emergency-rule
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - kalakoa - 07-15-2015
Done Deal. What's next?
They will now have additional rules to not enforce, such that the power of that not enforcement becomes even more awesome.
The protestors need to practice some aloha by realizing that they exist as a part of society.
Especially given that "society" is picking up the tab.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - PunaMauka2 - 07-15-2015
quote:
Originally posted by knieft
...How old do I have to be, by the way, to get qualified as wise?...
ha, though not necessarily pertaining to an aged individual, that immediately reminded of this one...
http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/51-argument-from-age
"Description: The misconception that previous generations had superior wisdom to modern man, thus conclusions that rely on this wisdom are seen accepted as true or more true than they actually are."
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-15-2015
several thousands feel they are, again, not being heard.
The book of Ecclesiastes says there is:
A time to scatter stones and a time to gather them together
A time to search and a time to stop searching
A time for silence and a time to speak
Protesting the TMT doesn't address the need for Hawaiian Homeland housing, education for a greater number of keiki, (not just the privileged few who now attend Kamehameha Schools), college scholarships, jobs, and some form of political power and recognition. What the TMT issue has done is given Hawaiians the spotlight. Now might be the time to put that attention on issues that will in fact change their lives and their children's lives for the better. In all honesty, I've tried, but I can't see how one telescope more or less on Mauna Kea will affect the Hawaiian people for better or worse by one iota. Housing will. Education will. Homeland self determination will. If those things are important, isn't it time to take the next step?
Some have been fighting telescopes on Mauna Kea for decades
Yes, but sometimes refusing to give up is not patience, and it's not perseverance. It's futility. Republicans have voted unsuccessfully to repeal The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) more than 50 times. They know they don't have the votes even before they cast them, and yet they vote again. Not all actions get you to the place you want to go even if it looks like those in charge are doing something. Sometimes it turns out to be nothing more than talk and meaningless action.
Nobody likes to be told what to do by someone they might consider an outsider. And maybe all it will take is another 2, 3 or 4 decades to defeat the telescopes, it could happen. Then, when each and every observatory is decommissioned, and the protestors come down the mountain, will they drive home to their Hawaiian Homeland homestead, and send their keiki to Kamehameha School the next day? Or will they find out that it wasn't about the TMT, and all they got was no TMT, no home, and no schools, and they're pretty in the same place from which they started a generation ago.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - knieft - 07-15-2015
HotPE,
Your post was perfect. I hope someone can hear what you have to say.
Cheers,
Kirt
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - shockwave rider - 07-15-2015
quote:
Originally posted by opihikao
HOTPE states:
The TMT went through a 7 year permitting process, during which time everyone had an opportunity to make their concerns known.
Yes they did, however, several thousands (61,000 on last petition, as an example) feel they are, again, not being heard. Some have been fighting telescopes on Mauna Kea for decades, not just TMT for seven years.
Typical government shoving aside the people who dare to question them, for the "greater good". Unfortunately, as Richard Ha calls us, "the rubber slippa folk" have gained little to date, while the "chosen few" gained plenty.
At this point, it (TMT) is a done deal, road is open, let the chips fall where they may. Akua be with us all.
JMO.
The 61,000 signatures on that petition included many people on the mainland and in other countries who were recruited to sign through social media. I personally several know people on the mainland who signed without having any idea what the issues were. So that petition just muddied the waters in terms of understanding who supports what.
I am someone who is generally on the side of native peoples rights in these sorts of conflicts, I am also a big supporter of science that tries to increase our understanding of the universe we are a tiny part of. When this whole controversy started I was fence straddling, with a lean toward the No TMT side, but as I've studied the issues and the process I've come to the conclusion that the issue of Mauna Kea and the TMT is really just a convenient tool for a wide variety of people to latch onto to make their positions heard on the issues of sovereignty, crown lands, and the overthrow. There are valid points to be made about those issues, but there has been so much lying from the Anti side about the processes and materials used by the telescopes and so much really ugly anti-anyone who is not Hawaiian rhetoric that I am now pretty firmly on the side of the TMT supporters.
I have seen people here on Punaweb who I used to respect use the "go back to where you came from" card, I know Native Hawaiians and long time locals who support the TMT who have been threatened into silence on this issue, and I have heard too many young people spouting anti-science, anti-progress dogma they do not understand, that they learned up on that mountain.
There was real harm done to the Hawaiian people since Captain Cook stumbled upon Hawaii, some deliberate, some accidental, and some done by the Hawaiian rulers with the best of intentions (the Mahele and selling off the Sandalwood) but very little of that will be solved by not building the TMT after they went through all the legally required processes. Changing the rules of that game now will prevent anyone from making meaningful investments in Hawaii for a very long time, and the children of Hawaii need jobs and industry that are not just more minimum wage service jobs in the tourism industry. No one is going to bring those kinds of jobs here in a globally competitive market if they cannot count on agreements being kept and contracts followed.
The TMT people invested 7 years and untold dollars into this project, now the "protectors" are saying that is not enough, while being very unclear about what they do want. I do not remember all these people flooding the hearings about the TMT over the last 7 years, instead they wait until the trucks are rolling, and then they stand up and claim no one was listening to them?
edited for typo
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - Newgirl - 07-15-2015
quote:
The TMT people invested 7 years and untold dollars into this project, now the "protectors" are saying that is not enough, while being very unclear about what they do want. I do not remember all these people flooding the hearings about the TMT over the last 7 years, instead they wait until the trucks are rolling, and then they stand up and claim no one was listening to them?
I'm still not partial to any particular side, and admittedly, I've come into this discussion a bit late as I'm not familiar with what concessions the public received from this 7 years of investment in the islands. Can anyone tell me what Hawaii has gotten in return so far?
quote:
Protesting the TMT doesn't address the need for Hawaiian Homeland housing, education for a greater number of keiki, (not just the privileged few who now attend Kamehameha Schools), college scholarships, jobs, and some form of political power and recognition. What the TMT issue has done is given Hawaiians the spotlight. Now might be the time to put that attention on issues that will in fact change their lives and their children's lives for the better. In all honesty, I've tried, but I can't see how one telescope more or less on Mauna Kea will affect the Hawaiian people for better or worse by one iota. Housing will. Education will. Homeland self determination will. If those things are important, isn't it time to take the next step?
Totally agree with that sentiment. But could it be that the battle is part of negotiating for those things above that didn't materialize? What I mean is, what is a better time to negotiate than when you are finally holding some cards?