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+--- Thread: Control your EFFING DOGS! (/showthread.php?tid=2077)
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - missydog1 - 04-23-2008
I fear and dislike pitbulls so I'm with you there, but as for this law, I think you're wrong. As I recall the reason for it, it is to protect people's pets from vigilante action. I know I talked to the humane society about it, and people are not allowed to poison animals that come on their property. They have a right to trap them and turn them in, or call Animal Control, but not to do the animal in yourself.
I'm pretty sure that's how this law works, from reading about it when it was proposed and from what the AC officers told me.
If that seems harsh, imagine you have a beloved dog that slips its leash and before you can track it down, someone's blown it away or poisoned it with snail bait. I realize there are roaming vicious unloved dogs, and they're a problem, but I believe too many people were losing pets due to people who are just plain hating of animals and weren't thinking twice about being cruel.
Now, back to how I feel, it really bugs me when people even walk their dogs off leash and let them approach someone who's walking (or riding). Then saying, oh, my dog is nice, it won't hurt you, after it's barked and run up to you. I really hate that. If I wanted a dog to jump up on me and say hi I'd invite the dog, or get my own. Don't inflict your pet on my person because you love it and think it's cute and then not take it seriously when I ask you to get it away from me. That happens all too often with very caring pet owners.
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - ohanamama - 04-24-2008
quote:
Excellent idea. Lead the way! Post a copy of the receipt of your donations when you're done to set a good example.
Geez I had to take this one a bit personally, I don't know how to post a copy of my receipt here, but I can certainly scan and email it to you if you'd like.I also donated blankets - Although my donations were in Ohio not here, we did adopt from the Humane society when we moved here,and I will continue to support the humane society as I have always done wherever I live.
I wouldn't mind an increase in taxes to deal with the issue either and would fully support that issue at tax time...
These are actions that everyone could take, without violence. Accusing those who don't shoot dogs that annoy them of being naive, lazy and incompetent is ridiculous.
quote:Well said Greg, and I must say that most(not all) people I know that have guns fall into the same category as your neighbor!! Its not the guns/dogs its the people who own them!!
I remain sympathetic to the problem of stray and neglected animals, but I have no tolerance for idiots that think guns are a first resort rather than a last.
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - mgeary - 04-24-2008
People don't eat peoples' faces off, dogs eat peoples' faces off. ;-)
Little levity here, folks.
I'm still learning the ways of all things Hawai'ian, and apparently, I've got a ways to go. I've never had to deal with the issue you folks have described (roving dogs individually or in packs, which pose a threat to safety), at least not on any large scale. I am a professional firefighter, and have, over the course of a 30 year career, responded to a few really horrific dogbites, but they really are pretty rare, and not usually from a semi-wild animal without a collar and license.
The problem we have here is with dogs (and cats) which are handled by the local Animal Control agencies, for the most part. The citizenry are simply disgusted with the tens of thousands of critters which are put down annually, not to mention the thousands which are killed by road accidents, other dogs, hawks, etc. All of this is due to the simple negligence on the part of irresponsible pet owners who do not spay/neuter their critters, then "dump" the unwanted extras, or allow them to escape whatever confinement they're in, not bothering to even try to find the escaped critter.
It sounds like you folks (and me in about two years) are dealing with an earlier step in the process, i.e., not even having an Animal Control agency, an SPCA, or if you do have those kinds of resources, they're not responsive to your needs. To clarify, if there is a threatening dog, do you have an Animal Control agency to call? If you call them, do they respond (ours don't even respond outside of M-F, 8-5), collect the animal, contact the owner with a citation if one can be found, and kennel/kill the animal after some period of time?
Regardless of what has been said previously, and regardless of the laws, I think it's just not a good idea to use a high-powered hunting rifle (arguably a humane method) in a residential area, or even a semi-residential area like most of Puna. If someone were to actually do such a thing, they'd be matching the potential threat of a potentially vicious dog with the actual threat of a ricochet, or worse. I'm a gun owner for personal protection, and I used to actually hunt until I got tired of killing things about 25 years ago, but I'm skilled enough to know that shooting a dog is in itself a risky business in a residential area. Once you pull that trigger, you have no control over where the bullet finally winds up.
And in my layperson's interpretation, poisoning, even somebody else's pet, does indeed meet the criteria for the felony part of your animal cruelty statute. A wise lawyer might be able to help out here. Mr. Orts? Do-it-yourself animal control, beyond trapping, is better left to professionals, IMHO.
And, BTW, thank you all for this discussion. It is just this sort of discussion which helps me prepare to adjust to being Punafied in advance of actually packing my bags. Who'd a thunk it?
Aloha! ;-)
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - missydog1 - 04-24-2008
mgeary, yes we have Animal Control to call, as I said in my last post. By law, calling Animal Control is the correct channel for dealing with stray animals. Citizens are legally allowed to CATCH and detain a roving animal and then turn it over to Animal Control, but not to execute or treat it cruelly.
The Humane Society has a limited supply of traps you can borrow for free to trap feral cats (you bait the traps with food, NOT poison).
The owner of a captured stray dog can redeem the dog for a fine plus is required to microchip and maybe get its shots done, although not sure about that. The fine used to be so low that it wasn't an incentive to keep the dog under control, and the new proposal aimed to make the dog owner pay something considerably higher.
Animal Control works under the umbrella of the County Humane Society. There's a Humane Society location in Kea'au that serves Puna. (Others are in Kona and Waimea).
Barking dogs are a different issue. That one is hard to enforce because police have to come and listen to the barking and it has to meet the continuous for so many minutes test, AND they will not be happy with you for calling them unless you've already written your neighbor a letter and tried to resolve it without police assistance.
There are channels to use for dealing with roaming dogs, and guns aren't it (in the eyes of the law), unless there's some imminent danger from the dog.
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - missydog1 - 04-24-2008
Here's the home page of the Hawaii Island Humane Society:
http://www.hihs.org/frameloader.htm?http://www.hihs.org/services/animal-control/index-animal-control.cfm
Here's the section relevant to dog control:
Barking Dogs
Without proper training, any dog can become a nuisance. A well-trained dog will not bark at common, everyday occurrences but only when its territory is threatened or when it is frightened, teased or angry. When barking continues for ten continuous minutes or intermittently for 20 minutes within a 30 minute period, it is considered a violation of the noisy dog statute.
If you are having a problem with a neighbor's dog barking, we suggest you try talking to your neighbor first. You may want to give your neighbor a copy of the article The Barking Dog. If the noise problem re-occurs, you will need to call the police non-emergency line at 935-3311 to file a complaint with the Hawaii County Police Department.
Dangerous Dogs
If a dog bites or harms a person or domestic animal, the owner may be required to appear in court. The court will determine any possibly fines, whether the dog is deemed to be dangerous, and what steps the owner must take to prevent further problems. Corrective action mandated by the court may include requiring the dog to be spayed or neutered, attend obedience training, wear a muzzle, and be kept in the home or a locked kennel. The dog's owner may be fined anywhere from $200 to $2,000 and be sentenced to up to 30 days in jail. Dogs deemed dangerous are also required to be microchipped at the owner’s expense.
Dead Animals
If you see a dead animal on the side of the road, please report it to your local shelter (in Kau or HOVE, you can contact the Roads Dept at 939-2500). Removal of dead animals on private property is the responsibility of the property owner. Dead animals may be brought to the Humane Society for disposal for a small fee. For dead or injured wild donkeys, call the Department of Land and Natural Resources (DLNR) at 887-6063.
Defecation
Animals are not permitted to defecate on any private property without the permission of the property owner. If your pet defecates on the side of a public street or other public thoroughfare, you are required by law to pick up the waste and dispose of it in a sanitary manner.
Identification
In the County of Hawaii, dogs are required to wear a valid license at all times. Licenses are updated every 2 years and cost $2.10 for sterilized animals and $6.10 for unsterilized animals. Wearing a license tag will enable the Humane Society to return your lost dog to you. We recommend that cats also wear ID tags, available at your shelter for only $2.50. Another way to permanently identify your pet is to have him microchipped and register the chip with HIHS. Your veterinarian can perform this service.
Stray Dogs
Dogs are not permitted in County Beach Parks under any circumstances, even while on a leash. On other public property, dogs are required to be under restraint on a leash of eight feet or less. Dogs are considered stray if they are on private property without the consent of the property owner.
_________________
If you have any further questions about the laws here, it's simple enough to call them and ASK.
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - YurtGirl - 04-24-2008
Ohanamama, we are on the same page I think, I'm digging your straightforward answers and refusal to lose focus.
Fitz, Orts, the problem with taking matters into your own hands is the same problem that arises from any vigilante sort of "justice". You speak of extreme cases and in extreme cases I highly doubt most would find fault in your taking measures to protect your safety or those of others. HOWEVER, to base the fate of the majority of stray animals on a minority of cases is not good sense. Most people know that the humane society and dog pounds have to euthanize A LOT of animals every year. The difference with them doing so and you doing so, is that there is due process. A decent dog typically gets a chance. The owner is attempted to be found, solutions are attempted to be enforced, blame is more likely to be placed where it belongs. Anyone setting out slug bait or attempting to shoot a dog because it is getting into someone's trash is not being selective, it is not being humane, and it is not defending their own or someone else's safety.
My point with the petition was, instead of incessantly beating our chests on this forum, hollering our own stances and being dismissive and holier-than-thou, why not use this forum to come up with some thoughts as to how to make a change in this area? It seems like so many great topics are brought up and that there are always people who just want to sh*t all over it, who seem to feel better when communications have become irrevocably damaged and dysfunctional. That is so frustrating!
$1.00 a year added to our taxes? I think many would gladly pay it, I know I would. You can bet there are grants out there too. As for thinking on where else we could spend the money, that is really a moot point. There are always other places to spend the money, if it doesn't get spent on this then I doubt it would go to dental care for our keiki, rather, it would go to some other thing and people could still complain that it could go elsewhere.
YurtGirl
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - Rob Tucker - 04-24-2008
I agree
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - Guest - 04-24-2008
I don't know about on the Big Island, however, on Oahu... the Humane Society has a different outlook on donated funds:
(from a 2002 article):
BUDGET shortages prompted the City Council to shift responsibility for responding to animal nuisance complaints from the Hawaiian Humane Society to the police, but confusion and reduced enforcement could be the result. Imposition of fines could pay for the cost and return the duties to the Humane Society.
The Humane Society needs to use its donations for our animal welfare programs, not to underwrite the city's law enforcement and public safety functions," says spokeswoman Eve Holt. The society also should not be bashful about citing violators with the goal of making its enforcement operations self-sustaining. Enforcement duties should not have to be supported by donations.
...Police last month responded to 80 animal nuisance complaints, but few if any resulted in citations, according to Assistant Police Chief Paul Putzulu. He says that could change, and it should. Responding to legitimate complaints and then failing to cite offenders and levy fines is both costly and ineffective....
Anyone know where to find the Big Island's Humane Society Budget online at? If budgetting seems to be the problem... it seems as though we need to address that.
I like the $1.00 per year tax idea. (Sure beats that other $1.00 check box I see on my taxes each year)
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Damons Digest
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - JWFITZ - 04-24-2008
I agree as well, as long as real and meaningful results are achieved. In my neighborhood, a patrol car on my street will be chased by as many as a half dozen unlicensed animals, so I'd suggest I'm not optimistic. Remember, I've worked for both animal rescue and law enforcement. I'm not ignorant of these issues.
Read the dog statutes yourself, not someone's interpretation of them.
Here is the cruelty to animal statute in particular. Read it all.
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stushist711_1109.htm
Note careful definition of Pet Animal.
Note careful definition of "needlessly"
While you're at it, I'd look up the careful definition of "stray." Which is any dog on my property that hasn't the permission to be there. Period. I would also suggest looking at various statutes of other states, to see how the language is typically used. I think it would be pretty informative.
Under the strict definition many of you want to use, it would be illegal to sell a mousetrap in the state of Hawaii.
I in no way am advocating blasting dogs. Still, it's important that we don't represent something that is NOT illegal as illegal. In no way would I advocate blasting dogs in any area where the discharge of the weapon is illegal itself, or simply reckless. On your property, in the appropriate zoning such things are, by every indication and no specific prohibition, wholly legal. Remember, it is still legal to slaughter dogs to EAT them in Hawaii. They tried to out-law that a couple years back but the bill was struck down. This is the context we're working in. As for these rural areas, as well, I'd note, it's the areas where the problems are the most pronounced and any aid given by animal control or the police department is likely to be very distant if not non-existent.
If someone with real legal expertise has a different read on this, I'd like to hear it. Law is not as complicated as many would have it. Let's not confuse the issue. Address the specific case of:
A known dangerous unlicensed stray dog.
Ag zoning.
Immediate threat to personal harm or property.
No specific prohibition to the discharge of a firearm.
In this case, which is MY case, is there any evidence in the law that to kill such an animal would be a violation of state law? If so, I'd like to know.
Whatever is the most humane solution is fine by me, as long as there is a solution. Making one call to animal control and feeling happy that "you've done your part, all you can do." is was we must avoid. It's that attitude that got us into this issue in the first place.
It would be interesting if someone actually posted a call to animal control about a loose, unlicensed dangerous dog, so we can see what the response might actually be.
Please, and apologies, I don't mean to make any personal attacks. But still, we should all hold ourselves to a high level of personal responsibility and integrity. There are a lot of "drive-by shooting" sort of posts that take little into account and are often non-constructive.
RE: Control your EFFING DOGS! - Guest - 04-24-2008
*edit* So this is telling me that the county doesn't give a rip if you were to injur or poison an animal.
It wasn't until June of 2007 that there was even Animal Cruelty Laws on the books in Hawaii!
Under the new law, cruelty in the first degree occurs when a person tortures, mutilates or poisons a pet, causing serious bodily injury or death.
Pets are defined as dogs, cats, domesticated rabbits, guinea pigs, domesticated pigs and caged birds that are not bred for consumption.
The new Class C felony of cruelty to animals in the first degree is punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.
The measure also renames the existing misdemeanor provisions as cruelty in the second degree, which is punishable by a maximum of a year in jail and a $2,000 fine.
Cruelty in the second degree applies to "every living creature except a human being." It includes torturing, tormenting, beating, starving, overloading or intentionally driving over an animal.