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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-30-2020
The protectors are winning. Too bad they couldn't... create jobs or revenue or food or education or a tax base.
It’s like opening your mail and finding, WOW! I won a million dollars from The Protectors Clearinghouse Sweepstakes!
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-31-2020
As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, the current delay is all about the decadal survey and whether the NSF will fund the TMT project. I didn't know about the plans of TMT joining with the GMT and NOIRLab but in a sensible world, this plan makes sense. However, 1) the NSF won't make a decision for months, 2) the world is not run by sensible people, and 3) nor is Hawaii.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalakoa - 07-31-2020
TMT is looking to NSF as a way to "invite the Feds to the party", obviously necessary since the State has been proven incapable.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 08-01-2020
NSF funding was always a requirement for the TMT to be built, it has nothing to do with bringing the feds to the party. This funding was pretty secure given the priorities in the last US decadal survey but given the years of delay the latest survey is now happening and the funding is no longer secure.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - randomq - 08-01-2020
Is there anywhere we can send in testimony to encourage the funding? Seems the protestors are always the loudest at such opportunities...
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalakoa - 08-01-2020
it has nothing to do with bringing the feds to the party
Mine was a hopeful misinterpretation. Unfortunate that Federal funding didn't include some Federal oversight.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 08-02-2020
There are several telescopes on the mountain that have federal funding and that didn't stop the protests. Federal funding doesn't mean the feds can overrule state actions...or inactions.
randomq - I don't think the decadal survey is open to public opinion - it's a survey amongst US scientists and organizations and the final results are presented as a recommendation to the government. I'm sure you can imagine what would happen if those recommendations were influenced by the general public. We'll be chasing UFOs and having to demonstrate the Earth is flat if some had their way. I suggest you look up the Haldane Principle if you have the time.
I think sensible public input would be beneficial to the whole process, but I think the only way of doing that is through your political representative and they will likely not have any influence on the process.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - AaronS - 08-02-2020
This proposed action by the TMT consortium is really bad news. The project has already underwent 10 years of public review via several court cases, and two contested case hearing pertaining to their state conservation district use permit. If they secure National Science Foundation funding, this means they will have to go back to square one as far their permitting. They will have to do a Federal NEPA EIS and conduct a Section 106 consultation with Native Hawaiian groups. Those Native Hawaiian groups opposed to the telescope now will litigate whatever the findings are in the Federal NEPA EIS and Section 106 consultations.
I know the costs of the project have rapidly escalated over the years, but I strongly believe obtaining NSF funding will guarantee the project will never happen either here or in Canary Islands. The NSF probably won't provide funds for a telescope project in a foreign country, and the project will be facing a uphill battle to construct it on Maunakea for reasons I stated above.
The Keck Outrigger project had to go through a Federal NEPA EIS and do Section 106 consultations. It was never constructed due to litigation from the same groups opposed to the TMT.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 08-02-2020
I suspect Aaron is correct. If the TMT had actually started construction back in 2015 or even a couple of years later, this would not be an issue; the NSF would have provided the necessary funds. The upcoming decadal survey is unlikely to recommend funding a project that is unable to show it can be built on Mauna Kea (that's not the TMT's fault, that is the fault of the state). Building the TMT on foreign soil (i.e La Palma) is unlikely to be approved by the NSF.
I think it's unlikely, but I hope the TMT sue the state of Hawaii. Ige's inability to lead and enforce the law means we now face the possibility of no more astronomy in Hawaii and the world loses one of the greatest spots for scientific discovery and a cornerstone for locals being given the chance to be part of our exploration of the universe and to give their kids a fair chance of a decent career in the future.
It makes me feel sick.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - ChunksterK - 08-02-2020
Our best and brightest have been leaving the state for years, and the example of economic self destruction presented by the TMT fiasco will only add to that. Covid-19 is wrecking the tourist industry and will provide even more immediate financial woe. I saw this article on the Pacific Business News website about six weeks ago that said depopulation was likely with a first wave of 30,000 leaving the state in relatively short order:
https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2020/06/01/hawaii-could-lose-30k-population-slow-covid-recov.html
You'd think the pandemic would change some minds about TMT, but the idiots just don't get it.