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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - randomq - 02-11-2022
(02-11-2022, 05:45 AM)TomK Wrote:(02-10-2022, 03:31 PM)randomq Wrote: TomK, what do you consider genuine arguments from the anti-TMT crowd?
I don't see why I should answer that question because you've made it specific to the TMT. Rich Masuda's letter is about astronomy on the Big Island and Hawaii in general. One of the big questions now is whether astronomy continues on Mauna Kea with or without the TMT.
TomK, what do you consider genuine arguments from the anti-astronomy-on-Mauna-Kea crowd?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 02-11-2022
I agree with Rich Masuda. There is an anti-astronomy minority out there in the same way there are a bunch of anti-science and flat-earther idiots all over the planet. I suggest you reread Rich Masuda's open letter. He's not talking about anti-science people, he's talking about how scientists, astronomy and native Hawaiians can co-exist.
I'm not going to answer your question directly because you're trying to lead me into something I don't want to say. If you want a genuine argument from the anti-astronomy-on-Mauna-Kea crowd then ask them.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalianna - 02-11-2022
Do you consider anyone who oppooses TMT to be anti-astronomy? Of those I know who oppose building the TMT on Mauna Kea, and there are many, non of them are anti-astronomy. They are opposed to erecting another large building on a mountain they hold sacred. I think thereʻs a difference. Iʻve always wondered, could the TMT be built anywhere else on this island? Hualalai? Kohala mountain?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 02-11-2022
(02-11-2022, 06:50 AM)kalianna Wrote: Do you consider anyone who oppooses TMT to be anti-astronomy? Of those I know who oppose building the TMT on Mauna Kea, and there are many, non of them are anti-astronomy. They are opposed to erecting another large building on a mountain they hold sacred. I think thereʻs a difference. Iʻve always wondered, could the TMT be built anywhere else on this island? Hualalai? Kohala mountain?
Are you asking me? I wish those posting here could make it clear who they are responding to whom they are asking a question. Most do but many don't.
If I'm being asked the question about someone being against the TMT to be anti-astronomy, then no, of course not. I'm holding my head in my hands thinking anyone even suggests that. Could it be built elsewhere on the island? No. The reasons for that have been discussed many times here. Just about everything is available here and online. There was a long-contested case hearing which I can't be bothered to look up right now, all the information is out there and has been discussed here. I don't have the time or energy to go through all that stuff again.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalianna - 02-11-2022
When I reply to the post directly before mine, I assume to poster recognizes that the post is directed to them. If thereʻs other posts in between, I list the posterʻs name. But to be clear:
TomK: Who are you referring to when you write, "the anti-astronomy-on-Mauna-Kea crowd " if it is not the TMT "crowd".
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 02-11-2022
(02-11-2022, 08:02 AM)kalianna Wrote: When I reply to the post directly before mine, I assume to poster recognizes that the post is directed to them. If thereʻs other posts in between, I list the posterʻs name. But to be clear:
TomK: Who are you referring to when you write, "the anti-astronomy-on-Mauna-Kea crowd " if it is not the TMT "crowd".
I was quoting randomq.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - randomq - 02-11-2022
(02-11-2022, 06:30 AM)TomK Wrote: I'm not going to answer your question directly because you're trying to lead me into something I don't want to say. If you want a genuine argument from the anti-astronomy-on-Mauna-Kea crowd then ask them.
I'm asking you because you said they had genuine arguments, and I wanted to know which of their arguments *you* considered genuine. Not sure where you think I was trying to lead you, other than to not being intentionally obtuse...
I spoke directly with a few protesters and their allies that were in my circles. Most proclaimed their strong beliefs, but could name less deities and locations on the Mauna than I could, if any. All spouted false claims about fracking, nuclear power, pollution, etc. None could tell me a time they worshipped on or at the mauna before the protests. So I really would like to hear some *genuine* arguments from their side, or from anti-telescopes-on-mauna-kea folks in general.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 02-14-2022
And I was responding to Rich Masuda's letter
https://www.civilbeat.org/?p=1479133&utm_source=Civil+Beat+Master+List&utm_campaign=38987052f2-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2022_02_08_09_55&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_51c2dd3cf3-38987052f2-402027462&mc_cid=38987052f2&mc_eid=bb753109d3
and not nonsense about fracking, the water table or nuclear power.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - AaronM - 02-14-2022
Matsuda's letter advocates using the TMT controversy as a forum for Native Hawaiian disenfranchisement.
Rather than to address legitimate claims to MK, or even highlight historical usage of the mountain, he paints with a broad brush the colors of inequity.
The feelings of guilt that he shares regarding his perspective of his privilege allow him the ability to sing a song of woe that ties together every injustice that the Kanaka Maoli have endured.
He would be better served addressing those injustices directly and individually instead of tying them all together and dumping them at the summit.
,
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 02-15-2022
It's as if you've read the wrong book and savaged a thesaurus at the same time. Seriously, what does the following mean"
"He would be better served addressing those injustices directly and individually instead of tying them all together and dumping them at the summit."
He is addressing them directly and individually and not tying them together and dumping them at the summit - I don't even know what that means.