+- Punaweb Forum (http://punaweb.org/forum)
+-- Forum: Punaweb Forums (http://punaweb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Punatalk (http://punaweb.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 03-04-2022
(02-17-2022, 05:46 PM)randomq Wrote: TomK buying into the protesters narrative. Never thought I would see the day...
No, that's not the case. Matsuda, observatory staff which includes myself, understand that this is going to become a very complicated political issue and I am not prepared to give an answer that enables the protesters, no matter how much you or others want it.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - AaronM - 03-05-2022
No need for any more answers from you regarding TMT.
Your previous post said it all.
"Matsuda is pointing out the issues that will likely stop the TMT from being built and perhaps end astronomy on Mauna Kea.
They need to be addressed in some way and that is what Matsuda is trying to do, and those points are absolutely relevant to the future of astronomy in Hawaii whether you like it or not."
You have thrown yourself at the mercy of the mob in the hope that you can spare yourself from their pitchforks.
Best of luck with all that genuflecting...
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 03-05-2022
(03-05-2022, 06:49 AM)AaronM Wrote: No need for any more answers from you regarding TMT.
Your previous post said it all.
"Matsuda is pointing out the issues that will likely stop the TMT from being built and perhaps end astronomy on Mauna Kea.
They need to be addressed in some way and that is what Matsuda is trying to do, and those points are absolutely relevant to the future of astronomy in Hawaii whether you like it or not."
You have thrown yourself at the mercy of the mob in the hope that you can spare yourself from their pitchforks.
Best of luck with all that genuflecting...
Wow, what a strawman (I thought I was on your ignore list BTW).
The problem is that the TMT won't go ahead given two things, both of them are in the control of the state government. 1) Without the state enforcing laws, the TMT won't be built because construction will always be blocked by protesters. 2) The master lease for observatories on Mauna Kea ends in 2033. If the lease is not extended, all astronomy ends on Mauna Kea and will end well before 2033, because the observatories have to be decommissioned, removed, and the land restored to its original state by that date.
Add the complications of removing a subgroup of observatories by the time the TMT is operational, per the current agreement, with a bunch of people that want to remove all observatories which one or two politicians want to support because they think the native Hawaiian votes will help them, you can see the complicated mess we're all in.
But you imply you have the solution, so tell us what it is.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalakoa - 03-05-2022
Without the state enforcing laws
Not to pick nits, but the state is enforcing laws, just not the written laws that are in TMT's favor.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - AaronM - 03-06-2022
The solution is continuing the status quo. Observatories continue to be built and astronomy continues to be practiced.
However, given the current political climate, the mob will win the day. After all it is so much easier to destroy than it is to build.
Oh and you are still on my ignore list but I make an exception for the TMT topic.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - MyManao - 03-06-2022
(03-05-2022, 07:48 AM)TomK Wrote: But you imply you have the solution, so tell us what it is..
Why, I thought that has been obvious all along. The principles in the conflict, the Hawaiians and the TMT guys, need to sit down and talk.
Of course it’s a bit more complicated, but certainly it ain’t rocket science. The TMT wants to use land that was stolen from the Hawaiians. The Hawaiians want their land back. And the TMT is a big enough project that it has become a symbol of that theft. That’s just what it is, not that the TMT is or isn’t whatever, they're just the unfortunate in this mess.
If, instead of talking with the state the TMT were to ask the Hawaiians, how can we help you achieve your goals? then they would become a symbol of the Hawaiian renaissance rather than its oppression. Then they can speak with state with the support, rather than the lack of support, from the Hawaiian community. Because, once the state addresses the Hawaiians concerns, the TMT will no longer be an iconic symbol of the state's dirty laundry.
But no, instead of facing the obvious truth, we all toss around the virtues, or lack thereof, of a telescope.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - randomq - 03-06-2022
As if the small proportion of Hawaiians protesting represented the majority of Hawaiian opinion. They don't, as born out in many many polls.
As if they haven't sat down and talked. Many reasonable folks have, and many unreasonable folks have taken it all the way to the state supreme court and lost.
Take it to the Hague or the US supreme court; leave the TMT out of it.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalakoa - 03-06-2022
"The" Hawaiians want their symbolic land back; I think they should be fighting for homesteads so they have a place to live.
Long-term, I'm curious to see the property tax bills when all revenue generation has been shut down.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 03-06-2022
land that was stolen from the Hawaiians. The Hawaiians want their land back.
You could do that. Give your property in Volcano back to the Hawaiian people, if you can figure out who’s in charge of the group.
TMT -
Anyone who works for the observatories or is in some way connected with them is probably better off not stating their opinion or making comments perceived as pro-TMT at this point. The protestors have turned the TMT discussion into a team sport, anyone not for their stance is in their view against them. Facts and logic such as pollution of the Mauna Kea water table degraded into emotional outrage long ago. It’s turned Native Hawaiian family members against other family members if they won’t join the protest. Any comment or opinion in favor of the observatories will become locker room bulletin board material (as it’s termed in sports) to rile up the team and get their blood boiling. Except instead of a bulletin board it’s social media that reaches thousands.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - MyManao - 03-06-2022
(03-06-2022, 06:18 PM)MyManao Wrote: That’s just what it is, not that the TMT is or isn’t whatever, they're just the unfortunate in this mess..
As I was saying.. the Hawaiians, for better or worse and it doesn't matter the right or wrong of it, feel disenfranchised in our society. Enough so that since their success in retaking Kahoolawe, and having been further and further empowered in their search for a national identity since, they are enough in number to matter, and have an impact.
I am not arguing for or against the TMT, or the state's claim to sovereign jurisdiction, under the USA, over the islands. Nor am I suggesting the tactics of holding a large project hostage is the appropriate means to work out differences. In fact I think it is not. But I also think the state and federal governments' lack of accountability to the underlying disenfranchisement is equally not. As such I applaud the Hawaiian's tenacity and suggest it'd be better for all concerned to address them rather than sweep them aside.
Honestly, I think if the Hawaiians felt empowered in their lives they might even welcome the TMT as everyone else has. Everyone can have an opinion, can say their feelings are bogus and all that, but still they exist, and until they are addressed there will always be another TMT.. and children growing up in a state of confusion that need not exist if everyone would just commit to reconciling the differences.