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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Chas - 03-08-2022
(03-07-2022, 05:47 PM)Rob Tucker Wrote: Chas,It is a discussion by a linguist on communication and how people talk to one another, and more importantly, how culture and background influence these discussions in how they are interpreted by each other.
Why does this look like spam? What does this post have to do with TMT?
I found it extremely interesting as I recognized a lot of things that have happened in my discussions with other people. Even those who are of my culture and background!
I think if people on both sides of the TMT (or any) issue would realize these things, they could approach the discussion in a different and, hopefully, more productive manner.
Basically, I thought it would be helpful. In fact, I think it is the epitome of "Assume the best and ask questions".
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Rob Tucker - 03-08-2022
Okay. I get it.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HawaiiEV - 03-08-2022
The immediate goal of the protesters was to stop the construction of which they succeeded. I think there’s still a chance for an agreement, but hopefully TMT comes back with some better more locally minded PR people. I’ve toured many of the telescopes and have many friends in the astronomy community, always been a big fan. But it doesn’t take a scientist to figure out, or should I say it takes someone other then a scientist to figure out that they needed to reassess how they approach things going forward. It’s not rocket appliances.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - dan_c - 03-08-2022
(03-08-2022, 01:00 AM)Chas Wrote:(03-07-2022, 05:47 PM)Rob Tucker Wrote: Chas,It is a discussion by a linguist on communication and how people talk to one another, and more importantly, how culture and background influence these discussions in how they are interpreted by each other.
Why does this look like spam? What does this post have to do with TMT?
I found it extremely interesting as I recognized a lot of things that have happened in my discussions with other people. Even those who are of my culture and background!
I think if people on both sides of the TMT (or any) issue would realize these things, they could approach the discussion in a different and, hopefully, more productive manner.
Basically, I thought it would be helpful. In fact, I think it is the epitome of "Assume the best and ask questions".
Chas... Thanks! Hidden Brain has some gem episodes. This one is available as a podcast. The episode title is "Mind Reading 2.0: Why Conversations Go Wrong." It first aired in 2021 but definitely pertains to right here, right now.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 03-08-2022
(03-06-2022, 09:56 PM)HereOnThePrimalEdge Wrote: TMT -
Anyone who works for the observatories or is in some way connected with them is probably better off not stating their opinion or making comments perceived as pro-TMT at this point. The protestors have turned the TMT discussion into a team sport, anyone not for their stance is in their view against them. Facts and logic such as pollution of the Mauna Kea water table degraded into emotional outrage long ago. It’s turned Native Hawaiian family members against other family members if they won’t join the protest. Any comment or opinion in favor of the observatories will become locker room bulletin board material (as it’s termed in sports) to rile up the team and get their blood boiling. Except instead of a bulletin board it’s social media that reaches thousands.
Thank you, finally a voice of reason. As I explained earlier, this is not simple and it certainly isn't just a TMT vs native Hawaiian issue due to the upcoming end of the master lease.
(03-07-2022, 11:20 PM)Rob Tucker Wrote: My suggestion is to give one or more of the decommissioned telescopes to native Hawaiians. Hey, why not?
I'm not entirely sure how that would help. Firstly, decommissioned telescopes are removed and the land returned to its original state per the lease agreement, and secondly, only one telescope has been decommissioned so far (the CSO) and is currently in a state of being removed when it's allowed.
If you want to give a working telescope to native Hawaiians, then I suspect that will come across as somewhat patronizing because you can't just take over a telescope without passing on the knowledge of how to operate it and its instruments without keeping most of the original staff there. If you want to keep it as a husk of an observatory and only the building remaining, then what's achieved? To develop it into something else would require exactly the same kind of work at the summit that the protesters want to stop.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Puna Grace - 03-09-2022
Native Hawaiians rally as University of Hawaii updates Mauna Kea plans
- By Timothy Hurley
- Today
- [i]Updated 1:02 a.m.[/i]
- [i]As the University of Hawaii seeks to update a plan that guides its ongoing management of Mauna Kea, Native Hawaiians who rallied Tuesday at the state Capitol were urged to support a measure that would remove UH from its role on the mountain in favor of a new stewardship authority.
[/i]
- Dancing, prayer, chant and song echoed around the Capitol as hundreds joined the “‘Aha Pule for Mauna Kea and All Sacred ‘Aina” “to stand in unity for a better Hawaii” and to call for “the continued health and protection of our mountains, for our freshwater sources, for our ocean and for clean air.”
- Inside the Capitol, the House of Representatives approved House Bill 2024, which creates a new, independent entity to oversee management of the mountain.
- [i]The measure now faces an uncertain future in the Senate, which in 2021 declined to join in the process that created HB 2024, including the formation of the Mauna Kea Working Group.
[/i]
- [i]https://www.staradvertiser.com/2022/03/09/hawaii-news/native-hawaiians-rally-as-uh-updates-mauna-kea-plans/[/i]
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - AaronM - 03-09-2022
Oh boy. Now they're trying to add the Eco Warrior angle. I had no idea that the telescopes were contributors to air and ocean pollution.
Just another cause du jour for the tinfoilers to rail against.
Make a Sign and Be Somebody!
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Puna Grace - 03-09-2022
I don't think the sentence you are referencing says anything like, "that the telescopes were contributors to air and ocean pollution".
Maybe this goes to Chas' recommendation for better communication.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 03-10-2022
(03-09-2022, 07:14 PM)Puna Grace Wrote: I don't think the sentence you are referencing says anything like, "that the telescopes were contributors to air and ocean pollution".
Maybe this goes to Chas' recommendation for better communication.
On the other hand, can you explain how UH remaining as the manager of the Mauna Kea summit region is a problem when it comes to:
"[...]the continued health and protection of our mountains, for our freshwater sources, for our ocean and for clean air."?
The "continued health" phrase itself admits that the health of the mountain is just fine and the freshwater issues have already been determined - the observatories don't affect freshwater supplies on the island. I have no idea where the ocean or clean air comes into this; are they claiming the observatories are a significant source of air pollution?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - AaronM - 03-10-2022
Per the article that you posted yourself PG -
"Dancing, prayer, chant and song echoed around the Capitol as hundreds joined the “‘Aha Pule for Mauna Kea and All Sacred ‘Aina” “to stand in unity for a better Hawaii” and to call for “the continued health and protection of our mountains, for our freshwater sources, for our ocean and for clean air.”"
The protest is about MK and the issues noted are the health of the ocean and the air. I'm not certain how the telescopes are negatively impacting the ocean or the air quality. You'd have to ask the kooks about that.