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+--- Thread: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th (/showthread.php?tid=6893)
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - JWFITZ - 02-26-2010
Well, it hardly needs a topic, it's really the elephant in the room. Here you go. It's all very simple. I appreciate the invite, but you're asking for disaster. We're not ready as a community to face these issues. Give it a year.
Nonetheless, here they are.
1) Don't throw around the term sustainability unless you're willing to define and quantify it.
2) Don't assume you're planning for the future unless you're willing to define and quantify it.
Neither of these exist, at least to my knowledge, even with slant reference, in the PCDP. Or at the state level, or anywhere. The default assumption is that we'll continue to rely on tourism, building houses and all the same. That US GDP will increase at 3 percent forever, that oil will always be cheap, and that it will always rain a lot in Puna. And a whole pile of other completely unsupportable assumptions. These assumption are nothing short of a hallucination. Many are turned off by the complete dogmatic unwillingness to even discuss them--they are simply taken as fact. The state is projecting near 8 percent growth to justify their current budget down the road. I'd suggest, and again I appreciate the invitation for the input, is that most people in my "community" view the PCDP as "business as usual" -- just the "kindler, gentler" kind. I know a lot of people who support Ms. Naeole, not because they think she's capable, but rather that they think she's incompetent. And that can come across as a good thing, because she's demonstrated a willingness to leave people alone or incapably prosecute.
I think, instructively, it's very helpful to step aside from ideology and look at our future practically and empirically. Our societal needs in the same manner. Demand quantification. This takes guts. I don't personally claim to have the answers, but I do claim to have the guts to ask the questions. If we ask those questions: If that's done, the smoke clears very rapidly. In the short term, that's a losing proposition for the PCDP, as you'll lose advocates as many as you'll gain, and those you gain may well be less financially capable. There's a lot of people backing and fighting that issue for the sole reason that they've got a financial dog in the fight. In the long term, however, it's the only answer.
http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - Rob Tucker - 02-26-2010
Well that's all fine. And I can assure you that multiple aspects of what you state were in discussion among the 200+ people that formed the PCDP working groups. I wish you had been one of them. It is not actually too late. The Action Committee is inviting anyone to joint their implementation sub committees.
Village Centers are a primary PCDP component which my have effect on Seaview's future and Seaview's sense of SPACE.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - JWFITZ - 02-26-2010
I appreciate that and accept it as honest. When one or either of those very important details actually exist in the plan(not are merely discussed) I expect you'll find suddenly a lot more community support. Let me tell you as I analyze the data I feel it's a moot point. Maybe it's just my ego too, which isn't insignificant(my ego, I mean): I had some very poor experiences from some FOPF folks upon my arrival to this island and maybe that's jaded me to the plan too. I think it's tasteless to name names but surely you're aware of the crap we in Fern Forest have had to deal with thanks to some prominent FOPF members. . .Jaded/bruised ego? I'm not really sure that's the case, but I'll offer that as plausible psychoanalysis, and I'm hardly the only person in Puna with that diagnosis. Who cares, really? I don't and doubt others do either, but these issues have colored public opinion about the "Plan." As I see it, again, the point is moot: from my perspective we've killed the golden goose, and have 15 to 24 months of relative prosperity left. I can much better serve the community by growing taro. Sorry if that sounds grim, but if it looks like rain I dress accordingly. The future I'm planning for may be statistically less likely than some, but significant nonetheless--way way more likely than a losing pick in Russian roulette-but the risk of picking that card is so high it's foolish not to hedge against it.
Weather forecasting is something that I know something about. If you want to forecast weather with 80 percent or better reliability all you have to say is "tomorrow will be like today!" You'll win 4 of 5. Who cares, really? To forecast, and be worth anything, you've got to stick your neck out and call for a change. I expect a change in the weather. Not that the weather right now is really too good, but I expect it to be worse.
Maybe I'm wrong. I guess we'll see. Growing sweet potatoes and taro and giving them away is hardly a bad thing in any future.
Diplomacy isn't my forte anyhow. . .but getting stuff done is. . . you might find use for those talents at some point when that's needed. I volunteer. . .pretty much, that's what I do for (a meager) living.
In the mean time I'll continue providing the community service of offering counterpoise positions that balances the community perspective. If there's vigorous advocacy against the "for me/profiteers" in our community it effectively moves the credible center. This has happened already, and it's noticeable. It's a thankless task, for sure, and to take this one on you've got to enjoy weekly crucifixions, of course, but it's necessary if we really want to work for a better future. Somebody has to kick the anthill.
http://sensiblesimplicity.lefora.com/
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - Rob Tucker - 02-26-2010
Kapohocat wrote:
And i would bet this is at the heart of the issue.
It not about the tons of people who forwarded emails across the country to support space, its about the people who actually are residents there.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I may attend the meeting as a fly on the wall but the things that need to be sorted out for Seaview need to be sorted out by Seaview.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - Aki - 02-26-2010
I have found this thread quite interesting to read; however, as a non-resident, I've remained on the sidelines as a very interested reader. However, in a short 10 days, with over 140 responses and 4543 views, that kind of interest and input on community planning must have Rob doing his version of the 'happy dance.' Regardless of the outcome, the discussion has gone the full gamut: from the personal attacks to serious discussion on important issues of CoH responsibility, definition of community, planning and legal considerations, and (hopefully) effective conflict resolution. As a mostly 'silent' member of Punaweb (for now, at least) I say a collective 'Bravo Punaweb!!'
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - missydog1 - 02-26-2010
quote:I don't think the Planning Commission wants to disenfranchise the agricultural land residents. I think they want to conform to the General Plan which created so much ag zoning because the idea was to keep the Big Island largely rural and producing crops.
In Law and theory most of these subdivisions are agricultural. In practice they are residential. In law and theory residential pays a lower tax rate than agricultural (for some reason) while residential (in theory) require more services. Maintaining tens of thousands of "agricultural" residences is a thinly veiled mechanism for subtle disenfranchising of tens of thousands of residents. Geographic favoritism (or discrimination if you will) combines with ethnic favoritism in the County of Hawaii and the result is inequity.
You say that in practice this area is now residential. Yes, and that is what the PC has been working to stop - the circumvention of the General Plan that never envisioned urbanized small parcel living in ag zoning. They don't want to accept the changes and encourage them. They want people who are looking for density and services to settle in the areas that the General Plan zoned as residential.
Law Journal article cited in HRS code on Special Use Permits:
"Urban Type Residential Communities in the Guise of Agricultural Subdivisions:" Addressing an Impermissible Use of Hawai‘i's Agricultural District. 25 UH L. Rev. 199.
Quote from Chris Yuen from the meeting on Kalani:
"I think most people are aware there have been a lot of concerns over what is the scale of what you can do in the Ag District under a special permit versus going through the rezoning route, either through the State Land Use Commission or the County zoning route."
Hasn't S.P.A.C.E. used the SUP to gradually bring in activities that would normally require commercial zoning? Wouldn't you guys who are pro-SPACE be totally ticked off if the County allowed some developer to slip in and put in a commercial venue after applying for an exemption under the "schools are exempt" loophole?
I agree that Seaview residents should and will decide, but there's no reason why other residents or prospective residents can't have an opinion on whether we prefer to see the process in place honored rather than overlooked because most of a subdivision says AYE, we like this bit of ignoring the zoning laws, but we still want zoning protection from projects that we don't like.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - terry.way - 02-26-2010
quote:I don't know where the outside companies came from. Fundraising I've seen is for local groups, like for Joe's Capoeira class, to get funds to bring a Master over from Brazil. Or fundraising so Bellyacres could build a greenhouse.
Originally posted by StillHope
Greg,you keep talking about children while Ericm,SPACE volunteer,admitted that most of the time events are held by not SPACE but outside companies for the purposes of fund raising or such.I asked him to comment- no answer.
quote:I don't know about that either. The professional moderator is non-government. She isn't a cop. I think she's just there to keep the meeting on track, and to make sure everyone who wants to say something gets to.
About government intervention - are you forgetting that SPACE is the one who invited the government officials already on their side ?
Yes, there is a person in the neighborhood who has been served with a no-trespass order. Everyone else is invited.
quote:
Originally posted by Kapohocat
It not about the tons of people who forwarded emails across the country to support space, its about the people who actually are residents there.
Perhaps the supportive emails and web-posts are from part-time residents. I don't think you'd object if someone showed up to express an opinion who's only here one month out of the year. The 'off-island' support that I've seen in emails and web-posts are from people like this.
Hope this helps.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - Rob Tucker - 02-26-2010
Kathy, I am certainly encouraging everyone to share their opinions. This issue is a classic case study in a way.
As to your post I think that you need to consider that large landowners were handed a "get out of responsibilties free" card by the county in 1959. Everyone else gets to live with the result. As population increases the problems of lack of planning and subsidizing 1950's developers increases.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - terry.way - 02-26-2010
This fear of commercial business, I think, needs to be addressed.
I spent some time in England. Absolutely lovely.
There was a pub within walking distance of my house. Actually, there were three pubs within walking distance. The town was about the size of Seaview, a charming place called Sutton Courtenay.
This wasn't a bad thing! These pubs were for-profit businesses. No noise, no brawls, no vomiting in the middle of the night. Food, games, beer.
The town also had a 'post-office' which a euphemism for the kind of convenience store that's behind the Kalapana Village Cafe.
So remind me again why this is a bad thing? Why do people scream when someplace is zoned commercial, and we accept 11,000 alcohol-impaired deaths per year in the US?
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - Bob Orts - 02-26-2010
quote:That’s an important part (ignored by many) on the issue. Another item being ignored is the SUP violations are not just what is going on now, but also that there was site violations the applicant was supposed to correct when the permit was issued. They not only knowingly overstepped the bounds of what they promised they wouldn’t do but also failed to do what they promised from the beginning.
Originally posted by KathyH
[quote]Hasn't S.P.A.C.E. used the SUP to gradually bring in activities that would normally require commercial zoning
If I were the County, I wouldn’t give them any special new considerations because they didn’t even do what they were supposed to do from the start. How can they be trusted? If their permit is amended to give them permission for increased activities, will they go beyond that again? They broke their promise and trust in them is dead.
Now don’t you think that will be in the County’s minds whenever any community group applies for an SUP? So is this helping or hurting?