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+--- Thread: TMT groundbreaking - live (/showthread.php?tid=14781)
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - MarkP - 04-05-2015
Aloha Opihikao. You spent a large part of your post addressing alleged miscommunication and lack of clarity between various players but gave no details. I have no clue what you are alluding to, only that you are hinting strongly that the TMT supporters are behaving falsely. At its most benign, that itself is an instance of miscommunication or lack of clarity. A more harsh interpretation would be that it is disinformation. I don't get the point about Canada. They seem to be hurting for money. Understandable but if they don't come through, quoting the article, it "would be a shattering loss of obligation on [their] part." It wouldn't be a case of honorably standing up for a principle.
As for the protest I still don't understand how the construction of the TMT, the greatest telescope the world has ever know and a construction devoted entirely to the gathering of knowledge, is inconsistent with the traditional view of the mountains as places one goes to for enlightenment. I would think that Native Hawaiians would just eat this up. Also it turns me off to see little kids at any such demonstration regardless of the cause. They don't know what's going on and are just pawns or window dressing.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - opihikao - 04-05-2015
Aloha, MarkP. It's not really in the details (too many to type and videos all over the place. Lots on youtube, social networks, main stream media, etc.) and fulfills no purpose for me to discuss here. I was just pissed and disappointed in general at the manner this whole thing is being handled, and I wear my heart on my sleeve. That's all.
Some of us (Hawaiians) do support the future of science, but "the Hawaiians never had a massive telescope (or twelve...)". And it goes on and on and on, for both sides of the argument. [xx(] In my view, this is one of several platforms for Nation building/Kingdom reinstatement, and it's a big platform. In the coming months it will be very interesting to see how this all will tie together for Hawai'i. (*Sorry, little OT, but relevant to my concerns here.)
There was no point to Canada directly, it was "an aside". However, Canada's lack of funding is being touted as part of the protestor/protector claim to a small "win". It may just be Canada's financial decision for purposes not related to any protest whatsoever. You're right. It has no bearing on the situation on Mauna Kea today or next week, just didn't think it should be used as a "win" for the protestors/protectors.
Completely agree with you and the keiki being used to hold signs, be on the front line. Sadly it happens all to often at present day protests all over our country (and other countries). Even in war.
This protest coinciding with the Merrie Monarch is no mistake for sure. Hopefully, positive comes from so many people not only watching the Merrie Monarch hula competition, the world is watching Mauna Kea being protected. (TMT also promises to protect the environment at Mauna Kea). I must say, there are warriors both kane, and wahine, up there. On both sides of the issue.
Mahalo for your mana'o, all of you. This subject has obviously jolted my na'au out of sorts. Taking a time out from this thread to reflect, ponder, go with ohana to Mauna Kea sometime this week. Need to center my na'au.
Mahalo ke Akua. Mahalo to all of you who bring balance to my thought process.
JMO.
ETA: Terrible grammar, one typo.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - TomK - 04-05-2015
Opihikao - I appreciate your even-handed approach to the current controversy. I'm sure we see some things differently but also agree on many other things. Just a snippet although I can't provide details at this time, but the TMT has recently pissed off the other observatories on the mountain and they are certainly not in my good books at the moment. This was a relatively trivial matter and involved a lack of communications (hence the reason I mention it), but I hope it's not foretaste of things to come.
I am a supporter of the TMT project despite it being a direct competitor, it's a facility that will teach us all a lot about our universe and own history, but I agree that good and honest communication is necessary.
As for the Canadian funding issue, that has been an issue for a long time now and a year ago nearly ended the project. I don't think there is any connection with the current protest, it's a purely internal political and economic issue in Canada.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - TomK - 04-05-2015
Ask TMT to do an all-sky IR survey. Let's see who wins out.
The TMT is a direct competitor to the Subaru, Gemini and Keck telescopes. It will be able to do things they can't do and it will also be able to do things we can't do, but at the same time all those observatories will be able to do things the TMT can't do.
The competition will be for funds and it'll depend on what committees and funding organizations decide in several countries.
As to "the how can that be?" question, surely you can understand that the TMT will have the ability to carry out observations and make discoveries other telescopes on Mauna Kea are not capable of making, yet the others are quite capable of making extraordinary discoveries on their own that the TMT is not best used for. I'm surprised you don't seem to understand this.
Telescope aperture size does not correlate with scientific productivity.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - TomK - 04-05-2015
Dakine,
"[...]I once produced a book on the mountain [...]"
Just curious. What book would this be?
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - dmbwest - 04-05-2015
Don't take the ignorantly tossed bait Tom.
And waiting on Tom's question DK. "Once produced" means ???
aloha,
pog
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - TomK - 04-05-2015
Don't worry, Pog, I won't, but want to know how a book is produced on Mauna Kea. I'm sure dakine will answer. I'd like to read it no matter what.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - opihikao - 04-06-2015
Aloha kakahiaka, Mr. Tom. Mahalo for your understanding, and your mana'o on this issue. Your words do carry great weight in my thought process, Sir. Given your years of experience on Mauna Kea, and your candor, you have my utmost respect. (*My warmest aloha to Pam, please.)
In case anyone is wondering what is being chanted over and over and over, especially during the arrests last week, below please find the words and meaning. (Hawaiian lesson for the day; mo'opuna asked "what are they saying?", so thought I'd also share it here):
Ku Ha'aheo e ku'u Hawai'i
(Stand tall my Hawai'i)
Mamaka kaua o ku'u aina
(Band of warriors of my land)
'O ke ehu kakahiaka o na 'oiwi o Hawai'i nei
(The new dawn for our people of Hawai'i is upon us)
No ku'u lahui e ha'awi pau a i ola mau
(For my nation I give my all so that our legacy lives on)
Have a great day all.
JMO.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - lavalava - 04-06-2015
This is good to see people exercising their right to assemble and protest. Maybe next time a deep pocketed developer wants to build a resort on a beach#65292;these newfound skills will be utilized.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - Southernmost - 04-06-2015
All waha lavalava. A non Hawaiian telling Hawaiians what they should do. Pfffffff. In Ka'u, we have stopped numerous resorts, deep drafting,and marinas. But of course if you actually were from here you would know that. KAPU KA'U
Born&Raised Hawai'i Island