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+--- Thread: no wood-fired grid power for you! (/showthread.php?tid=20899)
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - MarkP - 05-11-2019
Contaminated water? How so?
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - Frank - 05-11-2019
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Tucker
If the PUC "failed to consider", they failed to consider.... doesn't matter what the outside analysis might be.
I concur... it seems what matters is the fact that the guiding agencies, PUC in particular, Failed to alert the investor that "greenhouse gas emissions" might be a problem before they spent 2 hundred million on the project...
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - geochem - 05-11-2019
quote:
Originally posted by riversnout
If the evil carbon is the excuse to stop this monstrosity, I will overlook the lazy argument. There are WAY more important reasons to kill this:
How about taking 21.6 million gallons of water per day from the Hakalau aquifer to cool the turbines,
How about injecting the hot contaminated water back into the aquifer via 3 injection wells that are less than 100 feet from the edge of geologically unstable cliffs,
How about the power purchase agreement with Helco to pay 21.5-32 cents per kilowatt for 30 years compared to solar which is only 9-11.
red herring, red herring, red herring...
Where do you think HELCO gets their cooling water from? Thin air? They have major production wells supplying the HELCO power plants, they take it out of the Mauna Loa aquifer and put it back in...
The (HELCO and Hu Honua) injection wells are below the Underground Injection Control Line, which means that, after review by DOH, they are permitted to inject cooling water near the shoreline. Can you show me that the composition of the water from the biomass plant is different from that injected by existing HELCO power plants?
And the cost of that solar is as available - what will it cost to have guaranteed solar PV as base load???
In fact, one of the options being investigated for reducing atmospheric concentrations of CO2 is a process called Bio-Energy-Carbon Capture and Sequestration: where the exhaust gases from biomass combustion are processed to remove CO2 and then that CO2 is injected into the ground. Hawaii turns out to be an excellent place to do that because the injected CO2 reacts with the basalts to form limestone and, hence, the CO2 is sequestered permanently. That is not to say that Hu Honua is planning to use that process - but it would be an excellent place to test the technology.
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - riversnout - 05-11-2019
For an extra 100 million, you could put this plant right next door. Make your own vehicle fuel.
https://carbonengineering.com/about-a2f/
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - riversnout - 05-11-2019
quote:
Originally posted by geochem
Can you show me that the composition of the water from the biomass plant is different from that injected by existing HELCO power plants?
Sure, let me quote the Hu Honua Environmental Impact Statement (EIS).
oh wait...
They never produced one.
what?
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - riversnout - 05-11-2019
quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
Contaminated water? How so?
This is a partial list of the hazardous chemicals that will be pumped into our aquifers. Not only are these chemicals hazardous on their own, the cocktail effect, or mixing of these various chemicals, will create unknown dangerous impacts to our coastlines and the people whose livelihoods rely on them.
* Sulfamic Acid (product name: “Acid Reagent”) – OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard, "Harmful to aquatic life with long lasting effects"
* NALCO NexGuard 2230 – “Prevent material from entering sewers or waterways.”
* NALCO Permatreat - “Do not contaminate surface water.”
* Bromcresol Green-Methyl Red Indicator Powder - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard
* Phenolphthalein Indicator Powder - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard, Delayed (Chronic) Health Hazard, Contains material which may cause cancer based on animal data
* Sulfuric Acid Standard Solution - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard
* DPD Free Chlorine Reagent (Salt of N,N-Diethyl-p-Phenylenediamine, Carboxylate Salt, Sodium Phosphate, Dibasic) - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard, Delayed (Chronic) Health Hazard
* HydraVer 2 Hydrazine Reagent (Sulfuric Acid, p-Dimethylaminobenzaldehyde) – causes severe burns, targets lungs, OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard, Delayed (Chronic) Health Hazard
* FerroVer Iron Reagent (Sodium Thiosulfate, 1,10-Phenanthroline-p-toluenesulfonic Acid Salt, Sodium Hydrosulfite, Sodium Citrate,
* Sodium Metabisulfite) - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard, Delayed (Chronic) Health Hazard
* PhosVer 3 Phosphate Reagent (Potassium Pyrosulfate, Ascorbic Acid, Sodium Molybdate) Target organs: blood, liver - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard, Delayed (Chronic) Health Hazard
* Amino Acid F, Sodium Metbisulfate - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard
* Morpholine – “Prevent material from entering sewers and waterways” - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard
* Carbohydrazide (Hydrazine) – ENVIRONMENTAL PRECAUTIONS: “Do not contaminate surface water.” In clinical tests, showed acute oral toxicity in rats, acute dermal toxicity in rabbits, and primary eye irritation in rabbits - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard
* NALCO 3D Cooling water treatment – “Do not contaminate surface water, Prevent material from entering sewers or waterways. If drains, streams, soil or sewers become contaminated, notify local authority.” – Acute oral toxicity in rats 5,000 mg/kg; acute dermal toxicity in rabbits over 2,000 mg/kg - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard
* Sodium Nitrite – “Prevent material from entering sewers or waterways. Spilled product may pose a risk to the aquatic ecosystem if released. If drains, streams, soil or sewers become contaminated, notify local authority.” - OSHA Hazardous substance, EPA Immediate (Acute) Health Hazard, Delayed (Chronic) Health Hazard
* Potassium Hydroxide – “Prevent material from entering sewers and waterways”
* NALCO 3DT120 (Sodium Bisulfite, sulfuric acid) – “Do not contaminate surface water. Prevent material from entering sewers or waterways. If drains, streams, soil or sewers become contaminated, notify local authority.” - Acute oral toxicity in rats 5,000 mg/kg; acute dermal toxicity in rabbits greater than 2,000 mg/kg
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - alaskyn66 - 05-11-2019
How come nobody has a list of the emissions the diesel fired plants emit.
A lot of people treat alternative power plants like the boogie man but dont know what the existing power plants are crapping out.
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - MarkP - 05-11-2019
I'd have to know where you got that list. The power plant would do with cooling water from the ground what they would do with cooling water from the ocean. Since they use so much of it and it only goes through once to my knowledge they don't treat it beyond maybe filtering it. It is hard to see how they could even put enough chemicals into 21 MGD to make a difference to it's properties that would benefit them.
HECO on Oahu has a permit that covers everything they emit on site. Drinking water in Honolulu has traces of copper in it. Because of that letting water run into the storm drain while drinking out of the hose would be a violation of their permit.
TL
R They would treat the stuff that goes round and round through the turbine but would not treat the stuff that goes once through and back to the aquifer. I could be wrong but even so there are permits involved. If you think that the whole permit deal is bulls**t then the problem is a whole lot bigger than just this plant. Ferchrissakes we all flush our toilets. That goes to a treatment plant where various things are done to the water including putting a few chemicals in it. The last step is that it is dosed with chlorine then piped offshore into the ocean. So if you feel that strongly, get down to Puhi bay and start protesting. Either that or stop crapping.ETA: A similar list could be generated for all the chemicals used in a drinking water plant. There are quite a few.
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - MarkP - 05-11-2019
What comes out of the diesel plants? 10 times what comes out of all our cars while providing 100 times the useful power. Actually that's not fair. For all their faults the big plants spill much less fuel when fueling up than we all do at the gas pumps and leak an insignificant amount of lubricating oil into the environment compared to what all the Puna junkers do. But basically it is CO2, CO, some NOx, and some particulates. All of these are bad for you and for the environment but if we instantly stopped all these plants lots of people would die even quicker.
RE: no wood-fired grid power for you! - tada - 05-12-2019
We aspire to the carbon free lifestyle of the homeless on Oahu and our grandparents on the sugar plantation.