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+--- Thread: People class divisions through zoning. (/showthread.php?tid=7761)
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Rob Tucker - 09-08-2010
Wao nahele kane and others,
This is a community forum and it's okay by me for there to be differing opinions. It's not okay to disparage people's opinions.
Communication does not really need or require winners and losers. It does require an exchange of ideas.
Assume the best and ask questions.
Punaweb moderator
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - csgray - 09-08-2010
Thank you Rob. Sorry you have to be a playground cop reminding people how to play well with others.
Carol
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Seeb - 09-08-2010
There is a lot of good information on the the reality's of zoning law in the zoning bulletin http://west.thomson.com/productdetail/139074/40560066/productdetail.aspx
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Wao nahele kane - 09-08-2010
Rob,
When an opinion is offered based on the topic and not about a skewed assumed fiction steering the topic in another direction. Such as this statement - "You're complaining because, on an island that looks to tourism for much of the incoming funds, the powers that be created "resort" areas that have been a magnet for millions and millions of dollars in investment -- on what was entirely barren lava, and in no way suited for agriculture?"
This is not what the topic was about. It was about the inappropriate zoning applications and in no way suggests that the "resort" was wrong to create. Planned resorts exist all around the nation and they don't apply the zone status "hotel" to the surrounding residential homes next to the HOTEL.
So... if an opinion is based on the topic fine, I’m cool with that, this one was based on a skewed assumption of being against the creation of a resort and was not associated to the topic.
In my opinion, it’s that sort of steering south of a topic that has driven many people away from this forum.
Seeb,
Thanks for link. I've been part of these strategies in the past, but never have I seen the type of zoning I see here. Mostly it’s about bargaining in a road, riparian, etc for this or that etc. I have never seen these sorts of blanket type zonings applied. In most the planned communities I’ve been part of, we have several differing zones created, not just one.
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Rob Tucker - 09-08-2010
Maybe so. But I will remind you, as I have reminded others, that the topic police here is me and in difficult cases the Operating Committee. I don't need self appointed deputies to decide what is appropriate or not. Feel free to have differing opinions but my job is not your job. Most topics have perspectives or aspects which may appear to move left, right or center depending on where you are standing. Often discussions will wander back and forth and come back to the issue. Keep it Hawaii and keep it civil and all is well.
Assume the best and ask questions.
Punaweb moderator
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Bob Orts - 09-08-2010
Kane, The unfortunate or fortunate reality is zoning like this exist all over the US. It is by no means unique to Hawaii County and is not even the minority zoning concept. You can go to extremes such as New York City with dozens of zoning types, designed to create very limiting and specific uses. Or, broad like in many Midwest unincorporated areas where only 4 or 5 types with land size being the only limiting factor. Hawaii County pretty much sits within the average classification types.
However, this is also a two way street. If your issue is keeping the use specific to the zoning, I look forward to your support of shutting down Kalani and SPACE. Both are openly operating non conforming uses against the intended purpose of "AG zoning. Since the local community is saying use and zoning is secondary to wants and desires, why shouldn't resorts have equal rights to expect the same on their "V" zoned property? As it stands right now, residential in "V" zoning is a permitted use, whereas Kalani and SPACE is wanting non conforming uses to be allowed in "AG" zoning. That's one heck of a door being swung open and I don't think people understand how hard it's going to be to close off unwanted development afterwards. If residential in resort zoning is an issue, what would you call resort or commercial use in agricultural zoning?
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Wao nahele kane - 09-08-2010
Yeah, ok Rob...
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Wao nahele kane - 09-08-2010
Bob,
I agree with much of what you’ve expressed.
I would say that any use outside the designation of the zoning shouldn’t be permissible unless pre existing to the zone designation (no Ex post facto). This excludes givens, such as, farmers/ranchers who reside on their Ag land and sometimes require an onsite staff/crew to care for the ranch/farm. In nonconforming circumstances that are necessary to adjust for unforeseen circumstances that may otherwise render a real property useless (such as, a giant deep hole and a home built within it extends beyond the maximum heights allowed, thus nonconforming). Other Non-conforming circumstances could be a second kitchen in a pool cabana as the legislations intent wasn’t formed to exclude such second kitchens but were designed to stop multifamily dwellings from being present where not planned.
If the zoning is not adhered to, what’s the point of zoning? If there is a need for a service or what have you within a given zone that does not permit the activity, then the zone designation can be changed on that particular parcel through the appropriate channels. Nonconforming use is supposed to be very limited in application and only to fill in created gaps between legislation intent and circumstance based practical reality.
Anyhow… that’s my position.
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Rob Tucker - 09-08-2010
Wao nahele kane,
Back to your topic.
I tend to agree with you when you say “the COH promotes citizen inequalities through its Zoning applications and has actually thus far has gotten away with it”. The example you give (hotel) is not the one I would have chosen though.
The Puna District provides a broad example of your point. The 80,000 “agricultural” lots in Puna were a collaboration between the county and large landowners to generate short term profit for the landowners and long term profit for the county.
By classifying these properties as agricultural the county provided a veneer to avoid the need, then and now, for delivery of infrastructure and services which a classification of “residential” might have required. The lands involved are of marginal agricultural value or the large landowners would not have parted with them. These were not grazing lands, sugar cane lands or croplands. Thin soils, rocky ground - already mostly harvested for timber. HPM stands for Hawaii Planing Mill. HPM sold all Puna's lumber to the mainland and now imports mainland lumber back into Puna.
The Shipman lands which adjoin HPP - now quite fertile - were just as marginal years ago. The reason that the Shipman farming and grazing lands makai of the Keaau Bypass are productive now is due to the fact that the sugar cane harvesting, done largely by bulldozers, scooped up the cane with massive amounts of dirt. The cane and dirt was transported to the sugar mill in Keaau where the first process was washing off the soils. Those soils were collected in wash off channels and then spread over Shipman's acreage resulting in long term improvement of their acreage.
As constructed the whole apparatus resembles a milking parlor. Absentee owners - and later the on site residents, are milked for property taxes with minimal legal requirement to provide service. There has been a steady positive cash flow from Puna to the county for decades.
Note that Ag land is taxed at a higher rate than residential land. The owners of these thousands of lots have been subsidizing the county for decades. Advantage Hilo / Disadvantage Puna.
When you ask: Why are the people of this county allowing such activity to occur? It is a good question.
For many years - perhaps forty years - the majority of the Puna lot owners were not residents. They were mainland, off island and foreign investors. The resident population was very small. Only in the past fifteen years or so, as we have seen Puna clock the highest rate of population growth in the state, has the resident population grown to a critical mass. As we examine this rate of growth and project it forward several things become apparent.
One is that the disparity of services and the unmet needs of the district become embarrassingly clear.
Another is that the devotion of the establishment - the county government (both obvious and invisible) to maintaining this inequity becomes exposed.
A third is that the people of Puna , becoming more aware of the situation, are organizing to challenge the status quo. Friends of Puna’s Future (www.fopf.org), which I am current president of, is not alone in taking on this effort. The questions you pose in this topic are examples of that fact.
I have not studied the zoning situation in all districts. There are likely other examples of what you and I would agree show inequities. I am not sure that these inequities were intended as class discrimination but that is what they have become.
Serious and massive overhaul of the zoning codes are in order.
This year, 2010, is a critical moment. One reason it is critical is that this election may result in a better atmosphere to balance the inequities or it may result in a continued atmosphere to maintain the inequities.
Another reason 2010 is noteworthy is that it is a census year. The census will establish the accepted number of residents in Puna. This census data may form the basis for civil rights complaints being filed with the Federal government. It may take Federal intervention to correct a half century of inequities. It could also be achieved by pragmatic and democratic leadership.
So while you may be annoyed that I cautioned you on your manner here perhaps you will agree that we think along similar lines on this subject.
Aloha.
RE: People class divisions through zoning. - Wao nahele kane - 09-08-2010
Rob,
Admittedly - I was initially a “wee” annoyed but after further consideration found it to be perfectly timed and appropriate - Mahalo.
What you’ve expressed in regard to the topic makes a great deal of sense. I also agree with your assessments on the matter overall. I’m going to look into the organization you’ve cited above and hopefully we can make those necessary changes occur.
Again... Mahalo
E ho'a'o no i pau kuhihewa.