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+--- Thread: When, not If lava crosses 130... (/showthread.php?tid=13003)
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - missydog1 - 03-09-2014
ItÔs all at risk, even outside the high level lava zones. Shoot, Waikiki is extremely vulnerable to a tsunami. Parts of Hilo are super flood prone. Earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, megatsunamis, lava inundation, my house is at risk too.
In California people build on fault lines that are predicted with near certainty to have a strong quake within 30 years. They still issue building permits. You apply for a permit, you assume whatever risks arise, and you insure what you can (or donÔt).
The County uses a grandfathering system. You canÔt tell people who bought land where permits were being issued that they cannot pull a permit. Can you imagine the outcry?
Fugitive dust is a Health Dept. citation, in my experience, and that is State, not County. Is the County citing HPP for fugitive dust? The fugitive dust law applies to grading and construction everywhere on the island. It is not a law made by the infrastructure police.
(IÔm not taking any position on the HPP citation. But there are standards that are broad and across the board, and that is something to consider when you choose to buy cheap land. Will you have hidden expenses because of that?
No one held a gun to anyoneÔs head and forced them to buy dirt cheap land, and there is a reason for the saying "you get what you pay for."
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - rainyjim - 03-09-2014
You make good points Kathy but fail to address the flagrant disregard for the law by both the County of Hawaii and the developers of the various subdivisions in question - which is largely the point being discussed and the point of importance to both the County and the residents of Puna.
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - csgray - 03-09-2014
Hilo has had lava flowing directly uphill of it within just a few miles of Kaumana City and Country Club rd. in the very recent past. Land and homes up there sell for 3-6 times the cost of Puna, but are equally at risk as much of Puna, just not from Kilauea, but from Mauna Loa. However, the developers of that land were held to the county rules concerning infrastructure that the developers of Puna were not. So the issue of price differential between the two is about infrastructure, not lava risk. Everyone on this Island except the northernmost districts are living downhill from potential lava disasters that will happen a whole lot faster than the Pu'u O'o flows when they happen, due to the steepness of the other volcanoes.
As far as taxation goes, at this time the valuation in both Hilo and parts of Puna are amazingly inconsistent. I have seen Hilo properties that have sold several times for $500,000+, and were being valued lower than my modest house in HPP. This was not because of the primary residence or senior discounts being applied, but because the property was valued at much less than both the last selling price and the current asking price. So it is not always true that Hilo owners pay more taxes so they deserve more services. A close examination of HPP, Leilani, Kehena, and Kapoho property assessments show that many properties pay a lot of taxes, while there seem to be quite a few properties in Hilo, North Hilo and Hamakua that receive far more services and pay less in taxes due to having much lower valuations than they have actually sold for.
I noticed this disparity when we were first shopping for a place to buy, and for the last 5 years I have continued to compare asking prices, selling prices, past selling prices and tax evaluations in these well serviced areas, and a sizable percentage of them are very undervalued, including the Hilo house of the tax assessor who kept trying to jack up our assessment during a time of falling prices to much, much more than we paid for our home. Property taxes and assessments on this island are not handled in a fair or equitable way, with the lower income districts paying proportionately more than the wealthier districts for the services they receive.
Carol
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - Rob Tucker - 03-09-2014
Former Council Chairman Yagong had publicly expressed intentions to audit the property tax system on the island. It was likely one of the things that led to his demise as mayoral candidate.
But this should really be a new topic.
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - Super8 - 03-09-2014
quote:
Originally posted by TomK
Super8 - you're saying that an artificial lava tube needs to be built, above ground, all the way from Pu'u O'o to the ocean. I'd love to see exactly how that could be done. You want to keep the lava with low viscosity, I understand that, but how do you actually build that tube?
Thanks for asking TomK,
Although, I imagine you'd love to tell me all the reasons it CAN'T be done, I'd still love to humor you with a general overview of how it plays out in my mind.
I'd start by popping out massive blocks of lava right in the intended path of the lava tube, using modern quarrying techniques. This is easily accomplished in as little as 2 hours per block using multiple rock drills Somewhere in the neighborhood of 24'x6'x6'. The resulting trench would be initially almost 30 ft. deep, assuming you were to quarry 5 lava blocks deep. Then a "V" trench would be dug within the main trench. Consideration at this point is how wide to make the trench, which would be based on expert analysis from Volcanologists and Geologists. And of course, Engineers. That's the easy part.
The Hard Part, moving these monster blocks, is actually very simple. Using simple tools and techniques, developed by Engineers attempting to explain how the Great Pyramid was built, the blocks quarried would lifted out and maneuvered to flank the trench on both sides, creating a causeway. Not every block attempted to be quarried will maintain it's integrity and therefore, be reduced to a gravel to be used for leveling and other purposes. (It isn't hard, just hard to imagine. When I get back out there, that's one of my first projects for my property.)
Determining how thick the walls would need to be would also be done with the opinion of the subject matter experts.
The general layout and design of the structure is a funnel reducing to a uniform width trench with a downward slope. As the lava moves into the funnel part, it would naturally spread out. As it cools, it forms a top crust that insulates molten lava underneath. You have seen video of the lava "breaking out" of cooled upper crusts, I'm sure. It always seeks the path of least resistance. Such is the way of nature. The trench would be positioned to fully utilize gravity and become that path of least resistance. So if the walled trench was built, and designed to use the natural movement cycle of lava, the lava would eventually form it's own upper insulating crust and lava tube, keeping the lava molten and allowing for transport over those six miles.
"But wouldn't it melt through the walls on the sides or build up and overflow? What then?" Short answer, "No," and that's why the Engineering aspect is so important. That's where I would go to outside help from the Pythagoras School. They have been studying the flow of rivers since Viktor Shauberger's son Walter established it. Their work deals primarily with water and erosion, but also has some other very interesting works. This is applicable if you substitute the lava for the water, and the trench sidewall heating for the erosion. You don't want the molten lava to erode the walls away, so controlling the flow (specifically, purposely containing it within a small space allows for a concentration of heat in the flow thereby keeping it liquid and flowing) is done by ensuring the flow always gravitates toward the center and lowest point within the trench. That way, if the flow stalls and crusts over before reaching the coast, the next flow can easily continue in the contained direction of the previous flow.
Lava tubes tend to be relatively narrow passages, indicating the conditions needed for one to form are centralized heat, heat dissipating walls, and a "weakness" in the path of the onflowing lava.
That weakness, in this case, would be a lack of obstacles and an intentional gravitational "path" of least resistance.
There is a lot to be learned from nature simply by observing it. You see how lava spreads when it encounters a low grade. It never really flows in a tidal wave of molten lava. Usually at the breakout areas, it's only a few inches to a few feet deep and initially maybe a few yards across. Meanwhile there is so much volume of molten lava pent up behind, waiting for another breakout to let loose it's pressure and fan out again from there. I'm simply proposing a conduit to contain and control that pressure.
I'd be more inclined to go into specifics if I thought it would be taken seriously. I am drawing on a vast amount of information spread across multiple disciplines. The amount of time and space it would take to explain it in detail is tremendous. I figured an overview like this would either generate specific questions or be entirely ignored.
As for the responsibility for the government in this situation... The current government inherits the mistakes it made in the past. I don't necessarily believe it was a mistake for the government to allow people to live in the high lava hazard zones. However, if the government generates tax revenues from these people, it has a duty to serve them. To quote the sentiments of peteadams " But HPP and other substandard subdivision land purchasers are still purchasing relatively cheaply and the conditions of their purchases are still the same: no infrastructure and lava risk. It's very unclear to me why the county should now "gift" the subdivisions with improved infrastructure on the backs of the taxpayers when buyers who bought cheaply knew what they were getting into. " This is the kind of "Hooray for me and **** you" attitude that gets nobody anywhere. If the people of these subdivisions pay taxes, guess what? They're taxpayers. It's supposed to be equal representation under the law, not based on how much income you generate for the government. If that were the case, a puna taxpayer's hard earned dollar shouldn't be used patch a pothole in Kona and a Kona taxpayer should have to fund the construction of parking lot in Hawi. How dare those (comparatively) poor people ask for improved conditions! Why then, continue to pay taxes for a property you purchased but the county provides basically no services for? What justification for taxation exists for that? If the county isn't compelled to build basic infrastructure for a growing population (10,000+ in HPP?) then that population shouldn't be compelled to pay taxes.
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - Midnight Rambler - 03-09-2014
quote:Not only that (the 1855 flow, which hit the Wailuku and turned the river black), but the 1881 lava flow crosses Komohana Street and reaches into the upper part of the UH Hilo campus.
Originally posted by csgray
Hilo has had lava flowing directly uphill of it within just a few miles of Kaumana City and Country Club rd. in the very recent past.
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - Obie - 03-09-2014
Super8
Thanks for the good laugh !!
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - Wao nahele kane - 03-09-2014
Super8,
One would be hard pressed to get any sizable block from lava. Lava is very inconsistent and filled with fractures. The only way to pull off anything like that in lava would be along the lines of strip mining with blasting and extreme heavy equipment and you'd have piles of rubble along the sides, not blocks. In theory yes it's possible but not practical for here. If the flow were headed towards downtown LA, New York or Seattle etc... it would probably be practical. We simply don't have that sort of value in infrastructure to make it practical. I was thinking it would be cool to use water for cooling and spell out aloha and make a giant smiley face with the lava flow so it could be seen from space
RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - Wao nahele kane - 03-09-2014
It would be interesting to utilize the flows to shape intended coastal forms. To create a shoreline city similar in scale to what is being done in Dubai. The flows could be used to create some of the greatest man-influenced wonders of the world. Working with nature in a sense to shape something new.
Even if nothing but creating a massive harbor in such a way to shore up the Helena Slump while creating a new protected waterway with possibly an airport and places for hotels etc.
Imagine the mountain view at night from such a hotel if the lava were coming downhill toward your location.RE: When, not If lava crosses 130... - missydog1 - 03-09-2014
Sorry to jump back, but to replies on the prior page.
To Rainyjim, I am quite interested in the history of what laws were broken and anything that might be going on now, so honestly I am not trying to ignore that aspect and welcome more education.
As far as what laws were broken when developments were done in the 1960Ôs or 70Ôs, and possible redress owed for that, I just feel that we need to remember our justice system does put statutes of limitations on wrongdoing, and surely they have passed long ago. No one can bring a claim after the statute has tolled, and it does not matter how good a claim it was or how great the wrong. The time has passed, and the time to go to court on those acts is over and done.
If you think the County is going to worry about wrongs for which it cannot be taken to Court, that were committed over a generation ago ... well I am dubious.
I am no expert on valuations, but to those who say a taxpayer is a taxpayer, well, itÔs not that the poor donÔt deserve, but there is nothing wrong with the service being somewhat proportional to what is paid. In many ways, those who pay less do benefit from the higher taxes paid by others. IÔm not one who believes in too much angst over getting exactly what my taxes are buying. (Kind of futile.)
fyi, I live (and own) in Hilo District, on the Hilo-Hamakua coast, which district has the most parks and recreational facilities of any district. This is not because of government generosity. ItÔs because this is plantation land, and the mills created parks for the camps. Now these parks and facilities belong to the County, and they are going to the termites. The wiring is shorting out, and the roofs leak, and the County doesnÔt supply equipment.
I would say the County has put a lot into Puna park facilities and very little into our district. Isaac Hale, Pahoa pool, and so forth. Meanwhile we (community organizations and volunteers) are doing benefits just to get our kids balls to play with and maybe some paint on the walls.
Sometimes I feel like Puna residents donÔt take time to acquaint themselves with challenges faced by other rural areas on the island.
As for roads, practically every tourist who visits this side of the island drives the road I live on at least once, and in the seven years I have lived on it, I havenÔt ever seen a road crew fill a pothole. They struggle to keep the trees out of the road and to keep the bridges from collapsing, and thatÔs about it. Wait, they finally did repaint the center line after it had almost completely faded away.
The streets in Hilo, do we not all use them? The main arteries are pretty jarring. I donÔt live in Hilo town, but I wouldnÔt want to see the streets there get any worse.
Hilo is the largest town in the state of HawaiÔi after Honolulu. Comparing Hilo and Pahoa is apples and oranges.
And whether or not it was a good idea or a spectacularly bad one, the Puna subdivisions were conceived as rural bedroom communities for Hilo, not as the beginning of a new hub.
My husband worked on some of the early building in HPP. He was a carpenter at the time. This was 1976. He remembers how it was visualized, as a suburb of Hilo that would cost less to live in as a trade-off for a longer commute (and fewer services). People knew what they were buying.
As for the land down near Kalapana, he called those the "lava lands" that were for people to buy cheap who were OK with having land that would go back to the volcano. This was before Kilauea started its current eruption, but still people knew what was likely to happen and that was why the land was so darned cheap.
I would never defend the terrible land use planning that occurred here or the nepotism or corrupt practices. It is just that all of this was well known and past the statute for litigation, and Kilauea was erupting again, and people still come and buy, knowing what they are getting, and then after they buy, they start complaining.
Your land would have cost much more if the roads had been great. Buying cheap and then asking for big improvements, I donÔt get. I was in escrow in Puna more than once, and looked at lots of land.
I never expected any of the issues to be fixed by the County. I always expected to be up **** creek without a paddle if the lava came. That all weighed into my decision process. In 2005, we bought property in Hilo proper, and it absolutely was on our minds that Mauna Loa could take it out. There was lava solid under the six inches of cinder on the land, pretty hard to ignore that.
We compromised by taking Kaumana off of our list of areas, tempting as the prices were, my husband put his foot down and said no, too close to Mauna Loa primary flow path.
All that said, of course I think there should be more than one through road out of lower Puna. I think itÔs horrible planning that one hasnÔt been put in place. You wonÔt see me complaining if "my" tax dollars go towards a project. I would be unhappy if the County were to acquire all the private roads in all the subdivisions and were to dilute the roadwork budget bringing them all up to par. Which is not going to happen.
In my area, the County wonÔt even acquire the short little lane going from PinkyÔs store to the PapaÔikou Mill beach access, and that is a very short road where people are constantly squabbling over a variety of issues. Hilo-Hamakua has a large number of "roads in limbo" -- it might even have the most in the County (trying to remember what Councilwoman Poindexter told us). There is much homesteaded property accessible by roads in limbo with sub-standard and failing bridges, leading to off the grid property on Hamakua. Services? What services?
You think it is just Puna but it is not.