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+--- Thread: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th (/showthread.php?tid=6893)
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - terry.way - 03-04-2010
Peregrine, it looks like you're going after the school now.
Only two likely outcomes I see:
1. Escalation. Suppose the best/worst case scenario happens, and you somehow manage to have SPACE demolished, and have The Proper Authorities deal with every one of your initial accusations. What then? What next? Are you going to go after more neighbors? You still have to live next to them. You think you feel ostracized now? Don't you see that's a downward spiral?
2. Reconciliation. Peregrine, have you once asked yourself, or anybody else, what it would take to have the No-Trespass order lifted? If you want good neighbors, you have to be a good neighbor. If you want other people to stop misrepresenting the truth, you have to stop misrepresenting the truth. This is basic! The Buddhist principle of reflection; the Golden Rule. I know you are certain that you are right, and what you're doing is the right thing. But certainty is only an emotion.
StillHope is right: you're not helping your cause. Even without the no-trespass order, you would support your cause best by staying aloof and away. But I'm not worried about your cause/my cause anymore. SPACE has good people working on good solutions.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - peregrine - 03-04-2010
Mr.Way,
I am not going after the school. I replied (in part) to Kapohocat's questions of water supply. What I have stated is fact, fact which you should be aware of.
Reconciliation is a strange topic for you to be breaching now. SPACE has had many opportunities to reconcile with all the neighbors it has had trouble with, but SPACE has refused. The exclusive "community" meeting is one more example. If reconciliation were of genuine concern to the SPACE organization, they would have initiated mediation before anyone felt the need to bring in the law. Instead, they have taken an offensive approach, believing that their supporters will simply overpower their opposition, no matter how justified the opposition is in it's feelings, opinion and action. SPACE would do better to acknowledge that it has more than once been the aggressor, and seek remedy from there. But that is not the paradigm a dictator lives by.
I have yet to see anyone from SPACE live by the Golden Rule when dealing with anyone they do not feel deserves it. Part of the underlying principal of treating others the way you would like to be treated is walking your talk. In a world where actions should speak louder than words, SPACE's actions against their neighbors and the law speak volumes more than your hollow Buddhist allusions and Mr.Ellis' side-stepping and obfuscation.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - missydog1 - 03-04-2010
I don't have enough information to take sides, and I am not taking sides, but I am observing. And although I get that SPACE wants to rally support, it sounds to me like the supporters are already lined up and quite solid, so I don't understand why SPACE doesn't allow peregrine to attend the meeting and speak. If all this huhu with the County is coming in part from her complaints, which seems undisputed, then why not have a meeting where SPACE faces its opposition. Wouldn't that be the best prep for going into a County-sponsored meeting? This choice seems totally weird to me. Is SPACE afraid of her? She is one person. She could be escorted on and off property.
Weird way to deal with your neighbor.
Not to mention having a one post poster show up and suggest that she be banned. I don't see SPACE advancing community discourse in this forum. I'm looking for it, expecting it, and not seeing it.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - Bob Orts - 03-04-2010
Rob's post about the County and SUP's was overlooked. He is absolutely right that even if SPACE has 100% support for the local and extended community, the regulations that the people demanded the County operate under, may still not give the County the authority to grant some exceptions to the SUP.
The County can not authorize activities if it does not follow the law on SUP's. If the County exceeds their authority, four things could happen.
1. Nobody does nothing and it's one of those 'they got away with it' scenarios.
2. A citizen sues the County for violating the law and based on historical court rulings, they will win.
3. Developers and commercial interest uses the expanded uses in violation of County laws to ask for similar items based on the precedent the County established that those items are now within the scope the zoning.
4. Developers and commercial interest will extort exceptions for themselves under a threat of a suit.
What everyone has to understand is that the zoning of the property dictates what the County can allow to occur on the property. If the zoning does not allow it, they can not grant it unless it becomes a variance or a zoning change. The SUP only authorizes what zoning codes allow, nothing more. They County does not have the authority under a UP or SUP to authorize activities that is limited to another zoning type. So, read the zoning for that land and that's all that can occur. If the County exceeds their authority, any citizen can sue because what the County did would be a violation of law.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - terry.way - 03-04-2010
Kathy, I advocated having Peregrine attend the meeting. Here's the argument, in a nutshell, against having her there: no time for it. A SPACE fan might make the case that having her there would completely delegitimize any opposition. But it's not us versus them!
When Graham says he actually wants to hear opposing viewpoints, he's telling the truth. SPACE doesn't need to have another situation like this 10 years down the line. They need to have everyone's input. Come to the meeting!
Maybe it's an off-chance, unlikely event, but we're predicting foaming-at-the-mouth if Peregrine shows up; and bam, there's 20 minutes of everyone's time wasted. It's happened before. And who's going to escort her? No one in Bellyacres wants to get anywhere near her, otherwise they'll be accused of assault. It happened to her husband. There's a very, very good reason there's a no-trespass order against her.
Instead, she was invited to submit written testimony.
Look, I'm not on the SPACE board. There's a board! With members scattered throughout Puna. It isn't just Graham. It's not a dictatorship! There's a membership. It's a large group! I'm not a spokesperson, I'm just The Guy with enough time on his hands to post on this topic. And I'm a supporter, yes. I'm a neighbor, directly across the street from SPACE.
I'm joined at the hip with Peregrine: my daughter is dating her son! We're neighbors, and our kids do what neighbor's kids do. It's perfectly okay! It's a bit weird meeting her on the street, though. She won't even turn her head. Her kids aren't playing with my kids anymore. This is a sad thing. And I don't think I can fix it.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - StillHope - 03-04-2010
quote:Romeo and Juliet in SPACE?[
Originally posted by terry.way
I am joined at the hip with Peregrine: my daughter is dating her son!
]
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - terry.way - 03-04-2010
There's this idea which got introduced into this topic which I want to address: that there's been no attempt at remediation or reconciliation. It certainly isn't the case with Peregrine, who was a vendor and a supporter until she started acting out.
quote:SPACE wants the discourse. Come to the meeting! But the forum was hijacked, early on, with the weirdest accusations. And maybe I'm part of the problem. Don't associate me with SPACE, like I said, I'm not a spokesperson.
I don't see SPACE advancing community discourse in this forum.
Reasonable people must have protection against unreasonable claims. I don't blame SPACE for ignoring her. Advancing the discourse is not served by having a conversation with her. Flash of insight! I am part of the problem! I'm going back to work.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - StillHope - 03-04-2010
Terry, why no time?
Can the meeting be rescheduled that all the immediate neighbors can attend? (The person currently on the mainland,f.e.)
I still think that those immediate neighbors should be the only ones to have a say.
I live in Seaview.I am enjoying the farmers market and the opportunity to attend a good show.
I live too far from SPACE to be bothered by the noise and crowds.
Do I have the right to decide the fate of those living close enough
to have their peace ruined forever?
I don't think so.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - Kapohocat - 03-04-2010
quote:
Originally posted by pog
Sheeww 15 pages. Good thing that Tsunami thing came and went. Now to get back to tattling on each other.
Whats the record number of pages / views Rob ?
doing my part : )
aloha,
pog
My $1 guess would be the real estate thread about land prices? Me thinks it went about 45 pages or so.
RE: S.P.A.C.E. Community Meeting - March 6th - peregrine - 03-04-2010
"we're predicting foaming-at-the-mouth if Peregrine shows up" That certainly sounds like slander. Slander is characterized by a lack of truth. It is also contingent on a belief of truth. Does anyone BELIEVE that a petite middle aged mother, who has for years been involved in her children's schools, who was just last week described as "very reasonable" by her child's teacher, is going to be foaming at the mouth? For 20 minutes? I thought not. My understanding is that there is a three minute limit on comments, and a moderator, so this speculation is nothing but a spurious attempt to discredit the opposition. Furthermore, if such predictions did come to pass, who would it harm? Not SPACE. To wit, possible scenarios: 1)Someone comes, yells for 20 minutes, proving themselves beyond doubt an unreasonable trouble maker. The meeting loses 20 minutes, then proceeds.
2) SPACE continues to refuse dialogue, proving beyond doubt that they are stonewalling, and really aren't interested in every member of the community...indeed, casting doubt on all their claims.
3) Full participation is allowed, all are made to feel welcome. Statements and commentary are made. Opposition to SPACE is listened to and considered with respect, and there is no further incident, proving that community involves everyone, even people don't like each other.
Which sounds best?
Mr.Way is not on the SPACE board, but his wife is. That is a little closer relationship than the average supporter has to SPACE. He is not just "some guy". The board may indeed have members scattered throughout Puna, but it is still not representative of the community as a whole. Case in point: A number of vendors at the market signed a petition to have greater say in how the market was run and to address iniquities in practices which favored members of Belly Acres. The vendors were told that the board wanted their participation, and that the board, in fact, didn't want to dilly around with market minutiae. But instead of inviting more vendor input, two or three members of the board who had been handling the Market split more officially [the way it has been painted to me by a board member], and invited on board at least two outsiders and zero vendors. When objections were raised about how the Market was being managed and how complaints were being addressed (or not), with no policy and no rules in place, decisions were made and actions taken based on personal preferences of the management. Favoritism was the name of the game. There were no inquiries or discussion of problems beyond accusation. Accusation of the favored was ignored or dismissed, accusation of the unfavored was believed and exaggerated without question. Even when a "witness" was brought forward, their testimony was completely misrepresented if it did not fit the desired outcome of the management. Does that sound like a "community" organization which deserves all the perks of their non-profit status and SUP?
There has not been any attempt at mediation or reconciliation from SPACE, only a year-long string of increasingly ridiculous and unfounded accusations coming from them. Yes, I have made my own accusations on this forum, but although they may sound weird, they are not false. I believe that with every bone of my body, and I believe that closer scrutiny and additional testimony would bare them out.
Finally, as truly preposterous as Mr.Way's assertions on the relations between his neighbors and his children are, I none the less feel a need to speak to them. The last time I crossed paths with Terry Way, his daughter gave me a big wave and smile, which I returned in kind. Mr.Way looked on tight-jawed, with no eye contact or acknowledgement. I thought, really, that he might blow a blood vessel. Romeo and Juliet? Hardly. The young Miss Way has been single for several months now. Additionally, it has been clear for many months that the only children the young Mr.Way are allowed to play with are one's whose parents are on the "approved" list.
A sad thing indeed.