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+--- Thread: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition (/showthread.php?tid=15831)
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - knieft - 05-06-2015
University of Hawaii Law Professor Williamson Chang:
First, when we say: “Mauna Kea” is sacred, We do not mean use “sacred” the way most people use that term. We mean “sacred” not just in the sense of “to worship.” We use “sacred” in the sense of “precious” and things, and lives, things and persons “so important that nothing else counts”—we apply it to those things and people that we care so much about that we would do anything, even flout and break the law, to preserve their existence.
I am left not knowing what sacred means, not only to most people, but to Sir Chang himself. "so important that nothing else counts" suggests to me almost a thought disorder. "nothing else counts" suggests to me means there can be no further discussion, that the sacredness of Mauna Kea is an "a priori", an ideation that is _given_ and incontrovertible, on the order of the bible to fundamentalists Christians, or the Euclid's 5th postulate--no, not the 5th, maybe the first 4 though. If Chang actually believes this, I wonder why anyone should take the time or effort to respond, as Dakine expects us all to do. Are we not to bow down now without rationality and worship Mauna Kea because Chang declares it sacred? What is left to talk about?
The child of a parent, especially a young child is “sacred” in this sense. So are parents to their children. So are grandparents. Even the family pet is “sacred.” If your house was burning down would you risk your life to go into the burning house to rescue your children, your mother, your grandparents, even your beloved dog or cat.
Perhaps if I turned off my frontal cerebral cortex, I would. If I discern that I would die along with my children, mother, grandparents, and/or dog or cat, then I wouldn't. That nasty money-worshiping western frontal lobe of mine can not help wondering how Chang's "arguments" above justify blocking the construction of the TMT. Ah yes, I just don't get it. Sorry.
If a pet is sacred like Mauna Kea, I guess there _really_ should be no further discussion.
Would you go even if forbidden by first responders, firemen or policemen? Yes, many of us would go without hesitation—without thinking of the consequences.
So the protestors have a certain pride that they have acted without thinking of the consequences...?
Would you give a kidney to save or extend the life of your child, your brother, your uncle?
In some cases yes, some cases no. It certainly depends on many factors.
Would you spend all of your money to save a loved one from cancer?
No. It would fail.
From Lou Gehrig’s disease?
No. It would fail.
Or spare a loved one from a life in prison without parole?
No. Especially, no, if they committed the crime. And in Hawaii they would have to kill someone twice to get life without parole.
Yes, we all would.
Wowser. Is he trying to speak for all of humanity, or to suggest that if anyone disagrees they are less than human, or at least beneath dignity, or for sure, that anyone who would say no to dying for their pet must not be a sacred person...?
Dakine, if you expect anyone to slog through over 30,000 words as the price of entry to be worthy of discussing the issue, you are not being very realistic. Speaking for myself, the weakness of what you posted above from Chang assures that I would not spend my time that way.
But that's just because I don't get it...(:
Cheers,
Kirt
30,00 to 30,000
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Rob Tucker - 05-06-2015
Who is this Chang character and why is he using the imperial "we"?
Does he envision himself as the King? Or is he speaking for everyone on his side of the issue? Or is he speaking for everyone, everywhere?
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-06-2015
Mr. Tucker, respectfully Sir, Williamson B.C. Chang is no character.
Here is his basic biography, which includes his education (including Princeton), and his accomplishments are many. He is a lawyer, and also a professor at the UH:
https://www.law.hawaii.edu/personnel/chang/williamson
Dr. Chang is dissertating the law, and utilizes "layman terms" (as in his analogy re: "sacred") often to avoid the misunderstanding of a legal point.
Dr. Chang has more credentials than the likes of Keanu Sai, in my opinion, and has written his 59 page brief as a lawyer, in this TMT issue (all of them do that; I've never seen a lawyer write anything "brief", with the exception of Jerry Spence, who I love! Sorry, O/T).
It is my understanding, the protestors/protectors apparently had a very good meeting with the TMT people at the Governor's office, and we shall see if "middle ground" has been achieved. (No, not a "shakedown" for more money.) FWIW.
JMO.
ETA: Analogy of "sacred"
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Rob Tucker - 05-06-2015
Thanks opihikao,
I have a bit of trouble with people who speak for everyone....it seems arrogant to me.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-06-2015
Sir, I do not believe he speaks for everyone at all. In fact, some of what he has opined on in the past (not this subject) I don't necessarily agree with. However, it is the LAW, in his opinion.
We all know the "vagaries of the law" are the window to opinion. That is all a lawyer is: A legal opinion.
Sorry, didn't mean to say "we" all know. lol!
Mahalo again, Sir for this venue. Seems to be a venting process for both sides of this issue. Thank God we are not debating "Diversion of lava" anymore! [
]Have a great day all.
JMO.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Wao nahele kane - 05-06-2015
Dakine,
..."The Joint Resolution was merely a bill, that is, an act of Congress. It was not a treaty. Yet, for a century the United States has officially claimed that it is this instrument, an act of Congress, by which the United States acquired the Hawaiian Islands."...
LOL - Seriously?
So by this account because All taxes must rise from the floor of the House... Obama Care is invalid as it rose from the floor of the Senate. That argument and a block of ice will get you a puddle of water. Inconsistencies in how Congress and the Executive branch operate to that of the Constitution occur all the time.
Furthermore unlike Alaska, Texas etc. Hawaii was not a separate remote area owned by another Nation, Hawaii was the area in question. Hawaii was the nation itself and ceded itself to the United States, the acceptance of the cede was in the form of the Newlands Resolution. There was no treaty to honor between two separate lands, Hawaii gave itself to the USA and in so much only existed as an interim management and the USA finally accepted the cede through the Newlands resolution (To whom were they to treaty with?).
The so called treaty was a cede of itself in whole and not in part where a sovereignty was left intact to treaty with.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - rainyjim - 05-06-2015
quote:
Originally posted by opihikao
Here is his basic biography, which includes his education (including Princeton), and his accomplishments are many. He is a lawyer, and also a professor at the UH:
He received his bachelor of arts from Princeton University.
I'd like to point out that prestige from attendance of specific ivy league universities comes from recieving doctorates of philosophy (PhD) not bachelor of arts.
In addition, he didn't receive a doctorate of philosophy from any university...he received a juries doctorate from UC, Berkeley.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - ironyak - 05-06-2015
Would you spend all of your money to save a loved one from cancer?
No. It would fail
Kirt - I know you're a self-described rational automaton, but never realized how fatalistic you are as well. It's hard to read some of your replies without hearing Alan Rickman as Marvin the depressed robot - "I have a million ideas but they all point to certain death."
You really wouldn't spend your life savings to save a loved one from cancer because the odds aren't in your favor? Wowzers indeed (go-go gadget empathy and optimism upgrade)
Agreed about avoiding the royal "we" and there being factors to consider before making a decision, but some of those might actually be feelings? They are part of being human as well perhaps?
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 05-06-2015
Thank God we are not debating "Diversion of lava" anymore!
Ah yes, the good old days.
We were all so young, so optimistic, and some of us thought if we couldn't change the world, at least we could try to divert it!
It was a simpler time, back in the good old days.
But that discussion only involved our little corner of the islands. Now this new controversy takes us from Pu'u O'o to Mauna Kea, and people on every mountain from Hawaii to Kaua'i have chimed in because we all live on mountains in Hawaii, don't we? Everyone builds their home on a mountain, works on a mountain, and dies on one of Hawaii's mountains. Mauna Loa, Haleakala, West Maui Mountains, Ko'olau, Mt. Waialeale... Just as sacred, or forgotten?
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Wao nahele kane - 05-06-2015
Dakine,
The major part of your dilemma here is that Nations on the whole do not go around giving themselves freely to other nations and there is no precedence for that in the world courts eyes or in the case of the USA. It's a bizarre situation and therefore reflected what was seemingly a strange method of decided adoption. One cannot 120 years later run out and shake an illegitimacy stick at it because it wasn't normal... damn right it wasn't normal. The whole thing was unique and not at all typical. Attempting to box it with other annexations is an exercise in futility. There are no parallels and expecting them is crazy.