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+--- Thread: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad (/showthread.php?tid=17696)
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - Punatic007 - 10-07-2016
Carey then perhaps another route to take would be a restraining order since the "squatter" lives in the same house with the landlord. A little fabrication or as an attorney once advised me "fudging" is sometimes acceptable. What judge isn't going to be sympathetic to the 93 yr old who feels "scared" with the unwanted freeloader in her house?
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - Carey - 10-07-2016
Punatic, restraining orders are not lightly given in Hawaii. To do so, there would need to be proof that the landlord is experiencing extreme duress or harm caused by the renter (I have never heard of a restraining order given over financial harm, nor of a good-for-nothing living in a home, if so, many spouses & children could have the same fate!....this is tongue & cheek, but would be a truth too).
The original poster mentioned no extreme duress or harm... (even mental harm is very hard to get orders of restraint)
Fudging is not a good way to deal with people & at this point, many posters here are making statements that could put the landlord in greater danger, esp. if the renter has family/friends on island that are more than willing to behave as Lunatics is suggesting
And as to a sympathetic judge... if the landlord were incapable of making sound decisions (or the judge, based on the evidence, believes this to be the case), the judge could request that a competency hearing be made & if the landlord is deemed incapable, this landlord may lose control of much more that an upstairs apartment the tenant is living in for the time it takes to legally deal with this issue...
Also the cost of this case could be borne by the landlord if the judge does not have sympathy, or the landlord is deemed capable... that could include reimbursing the tenants court cost....
Again, at the time the renter moved in, the landlord showed the mental capacity to interview and check references.... showing that at that time the landlord was cognizant of potential pitfalls and was doing due-diligence.... hard to overcome that...and could be used as proof that both parties were aware of the tenancy they were creating...
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - EightFingers - 10-07-2016
This is precisely why I decided to take the capital gains hit instead of trading for rental property in Hawaii. The little bit you get for rent is not worth the huge risk you're about to undertake.
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - TomK - 10-07-2016
Thank you for the voice of sanity, Carey.
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - Jeffhale - 10-07-2016
Yup Cary is right. Having been a landlord for several years, it can be quite difficult, getting rid of a freeloader. And the police have no jurisdiction too, it's all civil.
If a police officer does get involved, he can be held liable too. The ball can bounce in so many different directions you do need to know the rules, or else.
However, nobody said you can't play poker.
You can not intimidate the tenant or you could get the police involved in criminal charges, against you. Her best weapons are what the freeloader doesn't know. I always had an in-house, rent included, maintenance guy who understood that, if the employment was terminated, by either party, out they go. These types of people were always short lived. Most were honeymooners that 50% couldn't hold up their end past the typical longest 'honeymoon' employment period, 60 day mark. I never had the problem yet, that's because I continuously played a good bluff.
I could go on and on of so many different bluff hands I used, that worked, but then I might, sort of, incriminate, or open a civil liability on myself at the same time. lol. Actually the statue of limitation is expired, but, I knew the laws and you'd be surprised how even the toughest freeloaders are just idiots who are also bluffing, and, really, haven't a clue as to what they, and I, can and or can not do. I even have 1 or 2 bluffing clauses in tenant and employment contracts that I knew would be tossed out, but, and, it's not against the law to bluff. Unless you actually try and do the dumb bluff. For example; I had the clause which said; Paraphrased: 'after giving 10 day notice to quit, I could remove their possessions, change the lock, boot em to the street.' That's illegal and I'd have to be an idiot to play that card, yet, as long as a tenant believed it, it's fair play. I'd post the notice on door, and if possible serve it with a witness, if they didn't sneak out the back door, or bail when not looking; when moving just 1 or two things out, as some will just pretend to be, or try and delay you. I'd have a witness while they're at it, and sometimes help em move with a smile because, once they handed over the key, game over. In reality 10 day notice to quit, is part of the formal eviction process, at the expiration I'd have the right to file for eviction. Yet, does ya thunks I'd tell the losers that? [grin] Plus, a bluff or two were good tell-tail points during initial interview sessions. I.E. If I was interviewing a player, they'd grin or show some sign that they knew better.
Of the coolest bluffs, on tenants, was to file in small claims courts. It can be the fastest appearance date and absolute cheapest way to go too. Of course, you do have to know your opponent in this game or you'll just waste more time. Because, you may win the issue, be awarded the debt but, it's not an eviction process, only a cheap and quick low end bluff. Regardless, it was 100% effective for me. They never showed up, and moved before the hearing. I'd win by default but those are uncollectible anyways. the value was, getting the dopes out, not the debt. lol. I had 1 player who tried to counter sue and when he lost the small claims court filed an appeal. So, I played a few more bluffing cards against him whereby, once I convinced him I'd win that too, he bailed, and didn't show on the appeal hearing. even that 'player' didn't realize I hadn't won a single thing. [smiling] I mean, yeah you win right? Yeah good luck stalking them, serving em again or discovering where they're living or working and enforcing the debt,, good luck on that deal. ;(
Anyways, Yes, Cary is correct, for the most part as, it also depends on the state. I can't speak for Hawaiian codes or statues because being a landlord sucks in so many ways, due to the protections freeloaders can use. Sure I won all of the issues I had, including the few whom I had to go through the whole process; eviction court, pay process servers, and, albeit, none required sheriff's. But, it can be quite disheartening and stressful dealing with people whom you trusted and then turn against you to cheat. I sold all my rental property more than 10 years ago. And even during the housing crash, homes were so cheap it was almost irresistible to buy , but, I didn't, it just sucks so much. Anyways, there can be exception clauses in employment agreements that can speed up the process to dump the chump. Legal valid clauses, but it's all still civil so, if you can't bluff em out, you're stuck until the judge gives em the boot too.
Verbal agreements are not your best defense.. Yet, to play a good game of poker, you have to fully comprehend what you can, have rights to do, and what you can't. Hence, written contracts are superior, not just in court, but, 2 great points. Your employee/tenant, and or simple tenant can't deny written words, it becomes the motivation for them to leave and cause less harm, plus!
also in convincing a freeloader your bluffs are valid. [wink]
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - randomq - 10-08-2016
So what can a landlord do when they are renovating or no longer wish to rent at all? There must be some legal loophole for providing notice of the termination of a rental. I suspect it would be a couple months?
Looked it up and also found this on page 11: if you do a retaliatory lock out, you can take immediate repossession for family use. If the tenant takes it to court you could be liable for court costs and 2 months rent. So this problem can be solved quickly under the right circumstances (a complaint from renter), and given enough money.
https://cca.hawaii.gov/hfic/files/2013/03/landlord-tenant-handbook.pdf
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - shockwave rider - 10-08-2016
quote:
Originally posted by randomq
So what can a landlord do when they are renovating or no longer wish to rent at all? There must be some legal loophole for providing notice of the termination of a rental. I suspect it would be a couple months?
There is a fairly long notice period in Hawaii that must be given if a tenant is on a month to month lease, this would include a verbal agreement, 45 or 90 days I think. If someone has a written and signed year lease it is very hard to get them out early unless they are breaking the terms of the lease.
Report the exploitation, anyone can report suspected elder abuse or exploitation, if someone came around to investigate the situation I would guess the "tenant" would choose to leave pretty darn quick. No one wants to be scrutinized as a possible elder abuser, and living in an elder's home and refusing to leave would certainly count as exploitation under the elder abuse and exploitation laws. Hawaii's laws are written in favor of renters, but the elder abuse and exploitation laws are nothing to sneeze at, kupuna are valued here and that is reflected in the laws.
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - Punatic007 - 10-08-2016
I agree with shockwave. If the 93 yr old was a friend of mine I would independently take it upon myself to remove the tenant as I "saw" elder abuse taking place. Easy peasy. Call the cops...haha! 93 yr olds don't have time for long drawn out eviction proceedings.
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - Jeffhale - 10-08-2016
quote:
Originally posted by randomq
So what can a landlord do when they are renovating or no longer wish to rent at all? There must be some legal loophole for providing notice of the termination of a rental. I suspect it would be a couple months?
https://cca.hawaii.gov/hfic/files/2013/03/landlord-tenant-handbook.pdf
Without having looked up that PDF file I can say, in your case, it is common to want or cause repairs and renovations. You do need to give them written notice, and follow the proper procedure. if they avoid ya serve them either through certified mail or a process server. The procedure to notify and time frame would be whatever Hawaii allows. Once the notice is proper, time has passed they can not deny entrance. And if they do, then you've grounds to quit the lease or tendency. Don't push em around, show any anger what so ever. Be coordinal polite, clean your mess daily to provide a habitable environment. Alternatively, if the repairs require a vacancy, and or owner intends to occupy, most states provide a procedure, owner moving in is usually a shorter process .. You may have to put them up somewhere else, hotel etc. Follow it to the letter.
Yet persuasion, bluffing, whatever it takes without offending them, can speed thing along.
[final edit, The cards ARE stacked against you. yet there's good reason, but it's the one bad apple deal. To many lousy creeps have spoiled it for decent landlords. So, due your due diligences as it's the only card in your favor]
Moreover, any way you look at it, it's going to come out of your pocket when a tenant is not in agreement, so, plot the course of least resistance in time or money.
Know your tenant from day 1. I used to have a rather boring interviewing session, and then a long 3-5 hour signing session. I read, have them follow along every single word in my contracts. And explain em whether they said they'd understood or not.
Lots of people hated that, lol. But tough luck for them, If they wanted in, they'd be patent enough to get though my interrogations.
I'd spend a lot of time Because, before I signed anybody in, I'd ask questions then, later, circle back around and ask again, each time setting them up for the rotation so it didn't seem obvious I was tossing their answers back in their face. Most people exaggerate, some will lie and by the time I rechecked the answers, usually 3 times around, I'd be able to separate the difference. so, if I let to them or told them no, I knew what to expect when it went bad.
I'd go over every detail because, it reinforced my big bluff, '10 day notice and I'm stealing your junk, locking YOU OUT! ' and all of the rest to insure they knew exactly what they'd be getting into. And while my bluff wasn't enforceable, everything else was to the letter of the law,. I.E. 1 rule or item in the list does not make the contract invalid. So, even if they knew or discovered it wasn't by the time I finished with em, they had the clue I wanted to embed in their minds, ALL THE REST ARE!! Plus understand, I MEANT IT!! cept the bluff of course, [grin] Also, within that period of time, we'd make a personal connection. People are not as rude or harsh when you've established a personal connect.
I'm long winded anyways, so, it's not so suspicious of me too. [grin]
Yet understanding too, the majority of tenants think you're making the cash, or "You can just write it off" Right? LOL. at least 75% of tenants rent because they can't buy, they'll be Jealous and those whom you've problems with will try and play their cards.. Yet, while it can make things tough too, it's a fools game. Moreover, of the many tips, providing you play fair, you'll know or should by then if your bluffs are enforceable, or not. So, either direction they want to play, it's their choice as to which game we're playing, because, I already know my bluffs are just that but I'm not tossing my hand in because, with the procedure too, from the moment I signed a contract, I'm prepared for the path of least resistance, to win in the end.
RE: Removing a rental barter situation gone bad - geochem - 10-08-2016
I'll offer my 2 cents here as well: if I was in a similar situation, I would go to the County Office on Aging and ask for their assistance. They may be able to help the elder in getting pro bono services of a Hilo attorney to assist them with an eviction proceedings. We have recently had to go through an eviction process on a rental. It was a PITA, but we did it without an attorney and at fairly minimal cost - the primary one being that we had to pay for a process server to deliver the eviction notice. (who, by the way was a prince - very professional, and counseled the tenant in detail on what was going to happen next and why said tenant would be far better off to vacate the premises at his earliest convenience - and said tenant did vacate). But for an elder, I suspect that the process would be difficult to navigate.
I completely agree with Cary - going the extra-legal route is far more likely to generate more grief and costs than simply following what is required in the law. Although the code is biased in favor of the tenant, I've been on both sides of that equation and there are no small number of $hit landlords out there too...