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+--- Thread: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? (/showthread.php?tid=1997)
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - Bob Orts - 07-14-2008
Does anyone have any type of authoritative report about the concerns (danger) of PGV? I've tried looking for something but can't find anything. I did find some various theoretical reports that goes into details about cost, health, hurricanes, tsunamis, lava, etc, but most of that has been disproven in scientific reports. So, where does one go to get the facts about the dangers?
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - gtill - 07-14-2008
Bob, like most state screw ups, you'll find any info is deeply hidden. Same with Kohala Task Force, and NELHA. All multimillion dollar projects and total failures. Also all initiated and heavily influenced by UH. This is why using outside consultants is important, book knowledge is very limiting.
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - Bob Orts - 07-14-2008
So, where is all the negative information on PGV coming from? I’m sure someone isn't just crunching theoretical numbers in their office for a worse case scenario and selling it as fact. Or are they?
I do know the EPA’s reports don’t raise any concerns. And, the CDC did their own investigation on health hazards and didn’t turn up anything to support the call to shut PGV, but there has to be more. There has to be something beyond a sheepskin scientist reporting on this.
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - missydog1 - 07-14-2008
gtill, I didn't change it to O'okala; you mentioned something I wasn't sure about, maybe the O'okala project, and I asked if that was it. Then I commented on it as a proposal that has actually been made. I have no comment on a hypothetical in Puna; until the location and implementation are defined, it's just an idea.
I don't want to get in an argument, but this comment is simply uninformed:
quote:
O'okala is an industrial zoned area, and was a living for many generations of local people. The island needs commerce, which means jobs. We can't let rhe upper crust of beautiful people turn everything into a realtors dream, full of rich outsiders.
OK, take a look at the Protect O'okala website, as there are pictures of the membership at the top. Please tell me if these are "upper crust of beautiful people ... rich outsiders" you were referring to.
Photos of the protesters:
http://protectookala.org/files/images/top2.jpg
http://protectookala.org/files/images/top1.jpg
Website:
http://protectookala.com/
O'okala itself is NOT an industrial zoned area; it is one industrial site that housed a sugar mill in the midst of a larger residential area. There are places like this up and down the Hamakua coast, and in Kohala, that are the legacy of King Cane, which operated by setting up housing camps around the mills. What sort of worked with sugar mills does not mean that heavy industry generating pollutants is a good fit today as a center for a village.
The people of Hamakua and Kohala who made that living have a very high rate of cancer that has been linked to working on poisoned land. I was loosely involved with a community group there back in the late '90's, who were rising up and saying they are sick of their land being poisoned and made toxic for a few poor low wage jobs.
The people in O'okala who oppose this project are most of the residents, and they ARE the people who have been there, many of them, NOT the beautiful people. Have you ever been to O'okala and looked at the homes there?
This project started out pitching jobs to locals and ended up with some silly figure of a dozen or less jobs, with only a couple people in the whole community interested in having one. The others would commute. It was a mainland company with a bad track record trying to pitch jobs to get approval for a mill that wouldn't turn a profit in order to back door in a power facility across the street from where children and elders live.
http://www.protectookala.org/files/082206%20Letter%20to%20Editor%20Tribune-Herald.pdf
Now there appears to be a new proposal to modify the veneer plant idea and do biomass production, which I just now found:
http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/articles/2008/04/17/local_news/local05.txt
I won't comment on this plan because I haven't studied it. I guess we'll see.
Hamakua coast is one of the areas on this island not plagued by vog, and people move there to find clean air ... so to slate this area for any manufacturing that pollutes the air, seems short-sighted to me.
Let's hope that when something gets built in Puna the story is a better one. Part of the veneer mill scheme is or was to harvest trees in PAHALA and truck them to O'okala, through Puna, of course. Then milled wood trucked back over the gulches to Hilo port. Studies on the amount of fuel needed to do all this trucking? Not sure.
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - missydog1 - 07-14-2008
Bob, there is stuff to be found with a good search.
Although this article is dated, it's a good read:
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/nation/h2s/hawaii.html
Another easy one to find:
http://www.epa.gov/region09/waste/puna/factsheet.html
"Puna Emergency Response Plans Review: Fact Sheet"
One paragraph that gives me pause when I consider the implications"
"After visiting the PGV site, the Review Team believed that the facility would be able to respond to most incidents except fire. However, at the time of the review the PGV Emergency Response Plan did not fully address coordination issues between the facility and local response agencies. The Review Team has concerns over public alert and notification procedures and the ability of the facility and the County to carry out a coordinated, timely response."
Does this sound like an area that our County has mastered yet?
Effects of H2S on humans at low levels:
An M.S. thesis for the Dept of Energy and Resources at U.C. Berkeley:
http://erg.berkeley.edu/erg/people/Lana%20Skrtic%20-%20Masters%20Paper%20H2S%20and%20Health.pdf
Cited in thesis:
Legator et al. (2001) Medicine /Toxicology / Public Health
Investigate effects of chronic exposure to low levels of hydrogen sulfide;
multi-symptom health survey submitted to two exposed communities –
Odessa, Texas and Puna, Hawaii, and to control communities; found
central nervous system impacts: fatigue, restlessness, depression, short
term memory loss, balance and sleep problems, anxiety, lethargy,
headaches, dizziness, tremors; respiratory system impacts: wheezing,
shortness of breath, coughing; and various ear, nose, and throat symptoms.
http://www.saboteursandbigoil.com/H2S_Health_Effects.pdf
"Public health scientists now recognize that hydrogen sulfide is a potent neurotoxin, and that chronic exposure to even low ambient levels causes irreversible damage to the brain and central nervous system. Children are among the most susceptible to this poison gas."
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - Bob Orts - 07-14-2008
Thanks Kathy, but isn't that final report almost 8 years old based on 11 year old information? Don't know if it improved but think of what emergency management was 10 years ago versus today.
What I was looking for was something authoritative to say PGV is safe or isn't safe. So far, what I've read against PGV is more "laboratory" sheepskin science versus facts and actual science. Likewise what I'm reading in favor of PGV is the danger isn't really there, but it doesn't say it's not there just that they don't see it as feasibly happening. Maybe this is just one of those Prius situations: Is it better for the environment because it get outstanding fuel mileage and has low emissions, or is it worse for the environment because if the battery pack every breaks open in an accident you have a serious toxic hazmat situation on your hands?
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - missydog1 - 07-14-2008
Bob, I'm not convinced emergency management has progressed all that much here. We're talking about the County that had to develop a plan when the lava threatened to head towards Pahoa, and admittedly didn't have a plan.
What I would grant is the communication technology is way better and faster now.
yes, it's old; they don't seem to have done anything much for a long time.
There's no question the danger is out there if they have a well blow out. It just hasn't happened for a long time.
There isn't always something authoritative. The people who want it to continue have their data, and the people against it have theirs. Is there anything as definitive as the warnings that preceded Katrina? Probably not.
If there's a large hydrogen sulfide release, people will die. Then the safety question will be answered. We learned that Chernobyl was unsafe after the fact. Was it inevitable Chernobyl would happen? No, it was possible. Throw in some human error at the wrong time and some bad stuff can happen.
As for the illnesses, those kind of illnesses are impossible to test for and nail down. Like many environmental illnesses. People suffer for years and the whole area is as gray as vog, but meanwhile, people do suffer a myriad of complaints.
I can tell you what happens to most patients with complaints like that that can't be easily tested for or fixed. Their doctor explains that no one on the island is doing that kind of medicine, no one wants to do it, and the patient needs to learn to live with it ... and if you want to have a doctor at all, just stop talking about it and go to the doctor when you have something easy to diagnose.
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - gtill - 07-14-2008
So for preparedness, should the state pave old Govterment roadd, open the coast from Hawaiian Beaches to HPP, and reopen railroad ave through HPP. That would buy a little time, but what then. Wold it satisfy anyone?
And if a crack medical crew comes over and says no one should live here because of the pulmonary risk, now what. People from Kona are already saying they want it stopped, what's next?
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - Beachboy - 07-15-2008
Kathy H, if geothermal isn't the answer, then what is? Helco depends on people like you! Isn't it obvious that Hawaii needs to look to another source for it's energy? But this is a privately owned company,right? Their concerns is to it's investors, not the community. I'd also wage that HECO's technology is a bit dated. Burning oil to create energy at today's oil prices doesn't make sense to me. Yet HELCO will keep running it's op the same way until enough of us apathetic,lethargic, people to do something, or say something together in unison.
I truly understand your concerns KathyH, but this is 2008, not 1978! Technology is advancing at light speed. I truly believe Geothermal is our only answer right now to cheap affordable energy. The word or phrase of the day folks is "free enterprise". Do you think HELCO a privately owned company would sit back and allow something like a Geothermal Plant to be constructed in Puna? No, it depends on people to spread old outdated lies/info about Geothermal energy. People then pick up the ball and run with it,even though the info is bogus! Same thing is happening to our "homeboy" B. Obama. A quarter of this country still thinks he's muslim![:0]
KathyH, if an entire country like Iceland can switch over to geothermal energy...safely then why can't Puna? It's time we stop letting companies like HELCO how to run our lives! The technology HELCO is using is so outdated. Yet they aren't gonna upgrade their technology enough to help the masses.
HELCO has this island by the "short hairs" for way to long!!! It's time to change that folks! Let's move forward not backwards people!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRAQrDduaU0
how Geothermal actually works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjpp2MQffnw&feature=related
"When someone asks you, A penny for your thoughts, and you put your two cents in, what happens to the other penny?"
George Carlin
RE: Would Puna Geothermal Expand? - DickWilson - 07-15-2008
After following this post for some time, I'm pushed to ask, What if any alternative energy source is without some impact on the environment. Even tidal energy is opposed because of the possible effects on the ocean ecology. I begins to look to me that we are just supposed to let modern civilization collapse and go back to using whale oil in lamps after harvesting the whales using outrigger canoes and stone tipped spears. Any technology has some risks, its up to the users to minimize that risk and weigh the benefits derived against the adverse effects. Rant, Rant, Rant. OK, it's out of my system now[
]PS. Profit is not a dirty word!
dick wilson