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+--- Thread: Utilities and Solar (/showthread.php?tid=3023)
RE: Utilities and Solar - JerryCarr - 09-19-2006
Those of us on catchment water are fond of saying we get "free" water, but we really don't. Has anyone ever figured how much an average monthly electric bill goes up due to a water pump? I have no concrete idea, but one month after a lot of unusual power tool use, the meter reader noticed the jump in consumption and told us to make sure our water was not leaking and running the pump too much.
Aloha,
Jerry
RE: Utilities and Solar - Kapohocat - 09-20-2006
the secret to low elec usage on water catchment is to get a Pressure tank big enough so that it doesnt constantly run when you are using water, and large enough piping so it doesnt run alot trying to fill up.
And a good pump!
Catherine Dumond
Blue Water Project Management
808 217-7578
http://bluewaterpm.125mb.com/index.html
"We help make building your dream home a reality"
RE: Utilities and Solar - mella l - 09-20-2006
Hey Jerry that power meter that HADave mentioned above, I looked into it. Seems to me it would be a good tool to have and lend out to people. It would be cool to have a home owners association keep one and lend it out to residents looking into their power usage. Oh well we aren't there yet!
Cat thanks for mentioning the water pump. When we visited 2004 we stayed in two homes with catchment and those pumps went on continuously like for a shower or the washing machine. I lived for 25 years on a well system and never heard the pump running. Thought that was perhaps because the pump was 200 feet below ground. But there was a very large pressure tank with a bladder in it to keep the pressure up. How large of a pressure tank do you think a family of 4 would need? Thanks for any clues here! Mella
mella l
RE: Utilities and Solar - Hotzcatz - 09-21-2006
If you can get elevation for your water tank, you get 1/2 psi per foot of height. If you can get your water fifty feet in the air, you will have 25 psi water at the bottom. Minus some pipe loss and such, though. House water pressure runs roughly between 25 and 40 psi so if you could get your water 80 feet in the air it would be better. Most of Puna is too flat, but maybe someone will be able to build a water catchement higher than their house for a little bit of free water pressure.
If you happen to have a running water source, you can put in a hydro-ram or a water turbine for either pumping water uphill or free electricity. I only know of one water turbine and no hydro-rams, though. Hmm, wonder if you could built a water tower with a windmill pump? That would be very mid-west farm like.
A hui hou,
Cathy
RE: Utilities and Solar - jdirgo - 09-21-2006
But if the tank is higher than the house, how will the water from the gutters get up there?
John Dirgo, RA, ABR, e-PRO
Island Trust Properties, LLC
808-987-9243 cell
RE: Utilities and Solar - Hotzcatz - 09-22-2006
Some folks put a big roof over their catchement tank to collect the water, otherwise it could be a carport, utility shed or some other building other than the house. Maybe that's where the maid's quarters are? Unless the lot were a really steep hillside, it would probably have to be a fairly sizeable lot to get enough distance for the required heighth difference. Might be more productive to look into a water tower set on the high side of the lot. If there were thirty or forty feet of rise, then the tower would only have to be about fifteen to twenty feet tall. Sixty feet above the point of use would probably give good water pressure even with some line losses. The whole storage tank wouldn't have to be at that raised level, either probably just a couple hundred gallons or so. Five hundred? There would have to be a pump to get the water up the last fifteen or twenty feet to the water tower. That could be a small pump running on solar or wind power, (hydro-ram if you had a running water source) but with a small pump there would need to be a larger tank since it could be drawn down faster than the pump could fill it otherwise.
I don't see it as a solution for very many people, but it might work for one or two. And even if this isn't the specific answer, hopefully, folks will think about the wide variety of options out there before just doing things the way "it is always done" without thinking of why it is done that way.
RE: Utilities and Solar - JerryCarr - 09-22-2006
Growing up on a ranch in Texas, we had windmills to pump water for the cattle in the remote pastures. (Despite my father's innate stinginess, we used a gynormous diesel pump for the house and main headquarters area.) Has anyone on the BI tried windmills to raise water from catchment to an elevated tank? I haven't seen any, even in the ranching areas in Kohala. Seems like it would work well in some areas, and one could overcome calm periods with stored water or a small backup powered pump.
RE: Utilities and Solar - Hazen - 09-25-2006
One of the houses i'm working on right now is 100% solar with a generator backup. They've never used the generator, they live above Pahoa town. Location is important, i don't think Fren Forest or Glenwood would fare as well as Kapoho or Kalapana.
It's kinda funny, but i notice when people go solar they start trying to beat their usage stats. It's the same phenomenon you see in Prius drivers, trying to see how much they can eke out of their cars. I wonder how much more people would conserve if they knew how much they used. If you live in a relatively sunny place I highly suggest solar, its environmental, it gives us more security as a community, and you personally are bound to benefit in the long run. The advances in solar tech made in efficiency and cost savings in the last three years have really been huge.
RE: Utilities and Solar - JohnS - 10-09-2006
quote:
Okay -- I found the old solar thread. Verdict is that solar is impractical because it doesn't cost out. Maintenance is also an issue.
If solar IS working for you, please chime in.
I am off grid by choice in HPP and it works great for me.
However I do not live a typical American/"first world" super-high-energy-consumption lifestyle. My electrical power needs are very small compared to the usual and so my system can be small, simple and affordable.
Maintenance consists of checking and topping off my battery water. I do this the first of every month, as a routine, like dusting cobwebs or checking the oil in my car or any other minor maintenance task. 10-15 min. max. once a month.
aloha,
John S.
RE: Utilities and Solar - JohnS - 10-09-2006
quote:
If you can get elevation for your water tank, you get 1/2 psi per foot of height. If you can get your water fifty feet in the air, you will have 25 psi water at the bottom. Minus some pipe loss and such, though. House water pressure runs roughly between 25 and 40 psi...
Note that you don't need a LOT of water up high. Pressure is all about elevation, nothing to do with volume. If you put a small tank (50-100 gals for example) up high somewhere and low-power slow-solar pump up to it, you can leave your big tank where it is and still get pressure from the small tank higher up.
This is common in rural parts of other countries, including New Zealand where I have seen it myself - a big tank by the house for volume, a small tank up on the roof or similar for daily pressure use.
And, you only need 20+ PSI for the same energy-sucking appliances that give a high HELCO bill or suck propane - dishwashers, icemakers, standard hot water heaters, and any kine plumbing and fixtures that only work (or only work well) on high pressure water. Unfortunately this is the default for all current plumbing so you'll probably have to DIY for low-pressure systems.
Without those restrictions, a few feet of head will do...one can get gravity flow water to everywhere necessary with good design.
With poor design, a pressure pump is necessary, along with the electricity it uses, whether from grid or off-grid systems.
Aloha,
John S.