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+--- Thread: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition (/showthread.php?tid=15831)
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - knieft - 05-08-2015
PaulW:
"If it's not about the telescope then why stop the telescope? Of all the things to protest about!!"
Paul's less than twenty words alone pull the rug out of the "sentence salad" of Chang's civilbeat post.
Still, even reason can not defeat unreason.
Cheers,
Kirt
edit to add: opihikao: "This is not about TMT. At. All. Some get it, some will never." I keep trying to get it. And failing.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-08-2015
HOTPE, great point!
Then, why did he lie and say he was a tourist (changed clothes from the Hilo Hattie Aloha shirt to "work" clothes, and changed vehicles), instead of stating what you just deduced? He could have asked one of the numerous cops stationed there to assist him. Instead, apologized for the "misunderstanding", shook the young man's hand, parked the "work vehicle" behind the visitor's center, and got back in his "tourist car" and left.
Befuddled.
JMO.
ETA: knieft, sorry, it's a hot mess. You're not alone. Some of us were born into this mess, aloha to you. Mahalo for the effort.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 05-08-2015
Then, why did he lie and say he was a tourist,
I certainly don't know why, and it doesn't appear he gave you the whole story. If I had to guess, I'd say he was just trying to take the path of least resistance.
What do you think would have happened if he engaged in a conversation about what types of work the moratorium included? He would have spent all day talking about it. Like we are!
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-08-2015
HOTPE, LMAO! You're right! I hope he went to the beach!
Aloha ahiahi, HOTPE, always a pleasure.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - PaulW - 05-08-2015
Meanwhile the protestors threaten a teenager with death for disagreeing with them.
Somehow this alleged transgression of a TMT worker doesn't seem so serious.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - PunaMauka2 - 05-08-2015
it's kind of like the sacred card. declare something sacred and all else is trumped.
Mr. Chang, professor of Law, conveniently provides the license to put the irrational beyond a reasoned reproach. just declare it an exclusive ancestral cultural cognitive thing, apparently hereditary (2015 Hawaii society), westerners just can't understand, never will. voila, end of story.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - TomK - 05-08-2015
Interesting discussion here in the last day. Thank you!
I'm worn out after the last few weeks of rather intensive work, posting some thoughts here and just emotionally. I'm looking forward to a long rest this weekend. Just a few points to mull on in the meantime, not in any particular order:
1)The argument this is about sovereignty
There is no doubt there is a core group amongst the TMT protestors that see this as a protest against being a US state. I'm not going to argue this as it may or may not be legitimate, but I understand the argument and respect those who are making this point.
However, there are so many points being made by others against the TMT about rent, water supply, noise, the military, too many telescopes, fencing, visual impact, obsolete before it's built, chemical spills, oil spills and lots of stuff I just can't be bothered to list right now, that have nothing to do with sovereignty. To claim this is the reason some people are against this project ignores all the nonsense and lies being posted about the TMT.
If it's about sovereignty, then make it clear that's the argument rather than damaging and diffusing it.
2) TMT manager distrust thing
Opihikao brought this up earlier in another thread and I promised to try and find out more. I did try but have come up blank. That's not to say Opihikao is wrong, in fact I believe her, but I can't add any facts. Sorry.
I can speculate though. This manager may well be new here and simply did not understand the culture he was confronted by. Opihikao - I don't know if you have been on the mountain when the observatory work crews start turning up, if so, you will have seen both the observatory staff and protestors are respectful and polite to each other. Some TMT staff are probably new and may not have "got it" yet. As I said, though, this is speculation.
3) Being pissed off with the TMT
Opihikao - as you wrote above, there are some things that one does not feel comfortable sharing on PW, and this is one. All I'll say is it was an intra-observatory safety issue.
Probably had one or two other things to say when I started this post, but all I want now is my bed...
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - knieft - 05-08-2015
Civil Disobedience 101:
You pick a fight that makes people think, "OMG, that's fudgsicled!"
For instance dancing at the Jefferson Memorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jUU3yCy3uI
And how it ended:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5WubfxrBuk
The TMT protestors (who are not actually protesting the TMT, sorry) may not getting as much bang for the buck by picking something that is cutting-edge science and beautiful--the TMT--to use as a symbol for undisclosed reparations.
An earlier post pleaded for you to pick an EVIL thing to protest. I wish you well in finding one, and if you do, it would likely be more profitable (spiritually speaking) to the aina, and the keikis.
Cheers,
Kirt
edit ps. In defense of the Park Police, the SCOTUS has declared dancing to be a method of protest.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - kimo wires - 05-08-2015
The paper by Chang on The Jurisprudence of William S. Richardson He quotes an unnamed Hawaiian Scholar saying.
"In Hawaiian, the past is referred to as Ka wa mamua, or "the time in front or before." Whereas the future, when thought of at all, is Ka wa mahope, or "the time which comes after or behind." It is as if the Hawaiian stands firmly in the present, with his back to the future and his eyes fixed on the past, seeking historical answers to present day dilemmas. Such an orientation is an eminently practical one, for the future is always unknown, whereas the past is rich in glory and knowledge."
It is this fixation on the past that will continue to hold the Hawaiian back if misdirected or misused. There is a lot more going on here than just protesting TMT. IMHO the desecration of watershed lands is a much bigger fish. But the TMT will get international attention. That's what it's about.
At some point the Hawaiian is going to have to turn around and face the future that has run him over and find a new directive. Hopefully a more thought out one...
One Thing I can always be sure of is that things will never go as expected.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - TomK - 05-08-2015
Why is it, when you are so tired, even exhausted, sleep won't come? Anyway, just came across this interesting article:
http://www.usnews.com/news/science/news/articles/2015/05/08/some-see-telescope-as-an-opportunity-for-science-education
"With some Native Hawaiians fighting telescope, others see an opportunity for science education"