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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-20-2019
Good article by Big Island Video News on the impact the protests are having on science:
https://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2019/07/20/with-mauna-kea-observatories-shut-down-research-impacted/
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-20-2019
Yes Tom, it is a shame that astronomy is caught in the middle of a battle that really has nothing to do with them. But hey, if a guy takes some land and leases it out to another guy, that doesn't insulate the lease holder from the humbug that will ensue when the lessor has to account for their fraudulent possession of the land in the first place. As such, it should be clear to anyone contemplating leasing land from the state that they can not be guaranteed uninterrupted use of that land, at least until the state works out the differences with the Hawaiians. Seems reasonable to me. It's just kinda sad your guys gotta be caught in the middle.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Rob Tucker - 07-20-2019
If all the non Hawaiians want to do something meaningful while this Maunakea protest is underway.... consider this.... organize a protest at the offices of DHHL demanding the local Hawaiians get their homesteads.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-20-2019
until the state works out the differences with the Hawaiians.
Yes, good idea.
Let’s have the state work out any remaining differences with the 72% of Native Hawaiians who support the TMT. They speak for the vast majority of the Hawaiian people by a 3 to 1 margin, right?
Or should the final outcome be determined by decibel level?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - macuu222 - 07-20-2019
The way I see this. It all boils down to money. TMT has done their homework. No other area for the telescope compares to Mauna Kea. If your gonna spend that kind of money in building the biggest telescope in the world ...your not gonna want to build it someplace that's less suitable for its operation (like Chile). Of course they could wait another 50 or 100 years and build it on the Moon. That would be ideal. And the protectors know this and would be willing to negotiate if they're adequately compensated.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-20-2019
HOTPE, the 72% number is bogus.
Of all the folks I know, maybe 10% of them would even participate in that kind of thing. Maybe 50% of them wouldn't be able to be found by the survey guys, and as MR pointed out, you are basing that number on a very small sampling. As such I think it is easy to say it is a bogus number entirely and you're holding on to it is biasing your own perceptions towards an illusion.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - ironyak - 07-20-2019
glinda - lessor has to account for their fraudulent possession of the land in the first place
There's that word again - fraudulent. If everyone needs to give back their fraudulent land then the U.S. can give Hawaii back to the Republic, which can give it back to the Kingdom, which can give back individual islands and ahupua'a to their relevant rulers from Tahiti, which can give the land back to the settlers from the Marquesas, who can give to back to the Menehune, who can depart and leave it as undisturbed, pristine 'aina. How exactly did anyone in this chain not take fraudulent possession (or how exactly does one take proper virtuous possession?)
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-20-2019
From: https://www.staradvertiser.com/2019/07/20/breaking-news/for-native-hawaiian-activists-the-fight-against-thirty-meter-telescope-is-a-boiling-point-in-hawaiian-history/
For Native Hawaiian activists, the fight against Thirty Meter Telescope is a boiling point in Hawaiian history
Reproduced below since it may go behind a paywall, and is relevant enough to be read by all regardless of your opinions on the issue. As they say if we don't learn from history we are bound to repeat it.
Walter Ritte has been fighting for decades to protect Native Hawaiian rights, inspiring a new generation of activists trying to stop construction of a giant telescope they see as representative of a bigger struggle.
In his early 30s, Ritte occupied a small Hawaiian island used as a military bombing range. Now at 74, he’s still a prolific protester, getting arrested this week for blocking a road to stop construction of the one of the world’s most powerful telescopes on Hawaii’s tallest peak, which some Native Hawaiians consider sacred.
For activists who say they’re protecting Mauna Kea, the long-running telescope fight encapsulates critical issues to Native Hawaiians: the 1893 overthrow of the Hawaiian kingdom, clashes over land and water rights, frustration over tourism, attempts to curb development and questions about how the islands should be governed.
It’s an example of battles by Native Americans to preserve ancestral lands, with high-profile protests like Dakota Access pipeline leading to arrests in southern North Dakota in 2016 and 2017.
For Native Hawaiians, opposition to the $1.4 billion Thirty Meter Telescope isn’t universal — some support the educational opportunities from the project and are facing backlash from those questioning their identity.
Ritte’s first taste of activism came during a resurgence of cultural pride and identity that began in the late 1960s and 1970s. He and other Native Hawaiian men hid on the small island of Kahoolawe that the military used for bombing practice. They were arrested, but the U.S. eventually stopped the training.
“We didn’t know anything about ourselves as Hawaiians,” Ritte said of his youth. “When we got involved with Kahoolawe, we had no language, no history.”
The young people leading the fight against the telescope grew up learning about his experiences and speaking Hawaiian amid an ongoing cultural renaissance. A 30-year-old leader of the telescope protest, Kaho’okahi Kanuha, credits Ritte and the Hawaiian movement for allowing him to grow up rooted to his culture.
“Uncle Walter can talk about not knowing the language and not knowing the history. But he knew how to stand up, and he knew how to fight,” Kanuha said. “Because of the things they did, the results were Hawaiian language programs. The results were revitalization of the culture and of understanding and of awakening.”
At Mauna Kea, Kanuha wears a traditional battle helmet as he speaks Hawaiian with protesters and negotiates with law enforcement. Thanks to the movement, he said he was able to learn Hawaiian at an immersion preschool and eventually earn a bachelor’s degree in Hawaiian language from the University of Hawaii.
He’s fighting a project that dates to 2009, when scientists selected Mauna Kea after a global campaign to find the ideal site for what telescope officials said “will likely revolutionize our understanding of the universe.” The mountain on the Big Island is revered for its consistently clear weather and lack of light pollution.
The telescope won a series of approvals from Hawaii, including a permit to build on conservation land in 2011. Protests began during a groundbreaking in 2014 and culminated in arrests in 2015.
Last year, the state Supreme Court upheld the construction permit, though protesters are still fighting in court and at the mountain.
Thirty-four people, mostly elders, were arrested this week as officials try to start building again.
The swelling protest is a natural reaction to the pain Native Hawaiians have endured and the changes the islands have seen, said Glen Kila, program director of Marae Ha’a Koa, a Hawaiian cultural center.
“The pain began when they took people off the land,” he said. “And then they took governance and stewardship of the land, like Mauna Kea.”
The battle is bigger than the telescope, said Hinaleimoana Wong-Kalu, a teacher and cultural practitioner.
“The TMT and Mauna Kea is just the focal point. For me it’s just a galvanizing element,” she said. “It goes back to the role that foreigners played and continue to play in Hawaii.”
From 18th century explorer James Cook’s arrival in the islands, to laborers brought to plantations and today’s tourism, the telescope is another example of outside interests overtaking Hawaiian culture, she said.
“They capitalize and commercialize our culture,” Wong-Kalu said. “They prostitute the elements that make us Hawaiian. They make it look pretty and make it look alluring in an effort to bring more money into this state.”
But not all Native Hawaiians see the telescope as representative of past wrongs.
“My family feels that they’re trying to use the TMT to boost their sovereignty issue,” said Annette Reyes, a Native Hawaiian who supports the telescope project. “I want sovereignty for the Hawaiian people. I want them to have their country back. But TMT shouldn’t be the lightning rod for it.”
Reyes pointed to telescope officials’ pledge to provide $1 million every year to boost science, technology, engineering and math education. She said opponents have called her a fake Hawaiian for supporting the project.
For some, it’s not just a political issue. It’s spiritual for Kealoha Pisciotta, who’s long fought the telescope.
“The problem is being Hawaiian today is a political statement,” she said. “We have to take political action to practice religion.”
Mauna Kea is a “living entity” that “gives life,” Kila said.
“So that’s a different philosophy from the scientific world, that it’s just a mountain that can be used for an observatory. It can be developed. For us, that’s sacrilegious,” he said.
For Ritte and others, the telescope is the latest battle over Hawaiian culture. He spent 11 hours Monday lying attached to a grate in the road leading up to Mauna Kea’s summit with seven other protesters.
“We protected and saved Kahoolawe from the United States military,” Ritte said. “Now we have to save and protect the rest of our islands.”
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-20-2019
bogus number entirely
It’s a scientific poll by a reputable polling organization.
The sample size is small because all polling samples are small. That’s how they’re designed. They take the limited number of respondents into account and with that calculate a margin of error. With 72% of Native Hawaiians in favor and a 4% margin of error, the only question is whether the ratio supporting the TMT is 3.2 to 1 or 2.9 to 1. But either way approximately 3 times more support than oppose the telescope.
If you don’t understand how scientific polls work, you can’t subjectively dismiss them as inaccurate. “Of the folks I know” is not a viable poll, and I have yet to see another more recent professional poll than the one I’ve posted.
Read the details and methodology and ask if you have any questions. There are several people on Punaweb how should be able to clarify anything you’re not sure about.
https://www.scribd.com/document/374711098/The-Hawaii-Poll-March-2018-TMT
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-20-2019
That's cute HOTPE, hang on to your hat.