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+--- Thread: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition (/showthread.php?tid=15831)
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - ironyak - 05-09-2015
Originally posted by PaulW
Ironyak, apparently you're incapable of understanding this too. "This is not about TMT. At. All."
Nope, just disagree with opihikao (big surprise
about it being so cut and dry for everyone involved.Since you're so quick to determine what is meaningless, perhaps you could apply your keen intellect on any of the issues I mentioned? A single report from the State Auditor on UH's lack of stewardship for decades is more than 10 pages though, so this may be asking too much?
EDIT: readability
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Lodestone - 05-09-2015
It's about the telescope! It's about the environment! It's about sovereignty! It's about the people! It's about the money! It's about the lies!
I think this "Anchorman" clip summarizes where we are at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-09-2015
Aloha kakahiaka all! MarkP, apologies for making such a blanket statement, and no offense was meant. In fact, you are correct; some of the protestors reasons are not factual, and deserve countering. For the record, I am also one who will "never get it" when posts are made that are so erroneous it does not compute.
PaulW, with respect, it was only ONE (1) "protestor" (with several names, and some mental issues), who threatened the student. He also threatened other protestors! Again, he has been dealt with, and is no longer part of the movement. In fact, may face charges.
Mr. Tom, Sir. Yes, I did get to observe the protestors and observatory staff interact on one occasion. Very civil, very polite, as it should be.
ironyak, is correct, and I stand corrected. It is partially about the TMT as a symbol of "enough is enough", due to the lack of management and stewardship of Mauna Kea, evidenced by the State Auditor's reports. Ceded lands/Crown lands is also a huge part of this argument, and until that issue is cleared up (which may be never, under US law), it will remain a huge question as part of the overall argument. Perhaps a better statement is "This is not ALL about the TMT."
I thought I read Kane's post re: "It started here (with a link to the DOI site). Exactly. The DOI meetings showed that Hawaiians can come together for once (Federal recognition-99% said "A'ole"). This TMT movement is on the heels of that showing.
It will be interesting to see how middle ground is found, and if the construction period will be delayed until the last appeal is decided on, which includes the Ceded Land/Crown Lands issue.
Apologies again for the statement "this is not about TMT. At. All", which apparently does not sit right. That is still my personal opinion, given what I see as the "meat and potatoes" of the TMT issue.
JMO.
ETA: typo; need more coffee.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - MarkP - 05-09-2015
With all due respect Opihikao, you can't just waltz in and apologize as though for an unintended personal slight. This goes to the very heart of whether the protest is reasonable. The "movement" is demanding that the world take them seriously and inherent in that is a claim that their arguments are consistent and logical. If you want to play that card your arguments must be consistent and logical. In fact if you want to support others as they play that card you need to be on the forefront, pointing out their errors and keeping the message on point. When one freak voiced a vile opinion, the silence was deafening from the majority of the anti-TMT crowd. That was almost as bad as the original statement. Another lost opportunity to show the world that they are ready for prime-time. When weirdos at public hearings go on about poison clouds, well yeah there's weirdos in every bunch but again there was no response from the rest of the anti-TMTs to distance themselves other than the more reasonable ones such as yourself saying privately that they don't believe those things. Not good enough. You can't have your own private opinion while backing a mutually exclusive public opinion.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - shockwave rider - 05-09-2015
quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
With all due respect Opihikao, you can't just waltz in and apologize as though for an unintended personal slight. This goes to the very heart of whether the protest is reasonable. The "movement" is demanding that the world take them seriously and inherent in that is a claim that their arguments are consistent and logical. If you want to play that card your arguments must be consistent and logical. In fact if you want to support others as they play that card you need to be on the forefront, pointing out their errors and keeping the message on point. When one freak voiced a vile opinion, the silence was deafening from the majority of the anti-TMT crowd. That was almost as bad as the original statement. Another lost opportunity to show the world that they are ready for prime-time. When weirdos at public hearings go on about poison clouds, well yeah there's weirdos in every bunch but again there was no response from the rest of the anti-TMTs to distance themselves other than the more reasonable ones such as yourself saying privately that they don't believe those things. Not good enough. You can't have your own private opinion while backing a mutually exclusive public opinion.
MarkP,
With this statement "You can't have your own private opinion while backing a mutually exclusive public opinion." you seem to be holding Opihikao responsible for a "movement" that she has even said she is not in total agreement with.
She is not speaking for the protesters, she is trying to voice what she sees, from her perspective, as being the core underlying issues for the anti-TMT crowd. Would you prefer that people who have personal knowledge of the opinions of the protesters not address what they have gleaned from discussions with people involved?
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - kalakoa - 05-09-2015
"You can't have your own private opinion while backing a mutually exclusive public opinion."
Isn't that a little like "if it's really about sovereignty don't mention the water table"?
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Wao nahele kane - 05-09-2015
"A'ole" So together they determined they didn't want Reservations. So it's a done deal, welcome to the Union.
Donuts and coffee are over in that corner and as you can see there are several protests going on right now including a semi nasty one over in Baltimore. That one has pretty well captured the attention of the National News. The best heard protest are typically the only ones occurring at a given moment in time and if differing protest are occurring simultaneously the most violent AKA riots get the spot light. OOOOh! The Millions Moms march has joined in and are demanding an end to police brutality. NOW they'll get somewhere, just like MAD did. It's all in the PR, it's all in the PR and Moms sell action.
BTW... Those lemon filled donuts in front of the pile are awesome.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - MarkP - 05-09-2015
When she says she is not in agreement with the movement at least on certain points I am able to understand. When she then turns around and defends, even by silence, the movement when they reiterate the very points that she said she is not in agreement with, I am not able to understand. This has to do with dealing with reality.
Yes, if it is really about sovereignty, don't mention the water table. More reality.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - shockwave rider - 05-09-2015
Are you putting forth the idea that Opihikao has the responsibility to respond to every action or statement made by every anti-TMT advocate, and that she is defending them through silence when she does not? Does that mean you are willing to be held responsible for every racist, illogical or dishonest statement made by pro-TMT advocates? Are you willing to be considered to be defending those pro-TMT advocates by your silence when you do not denounce them?
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - MattKarma - 05-09-2015
Like Mr. Paul, when he says it's about science. It's not. It's about god. I choose to believe in the god that took 4 billion plus years to create the solar system, and hurls planet-size chunks of rock on a whim. One of them, 16 Psyche has enough precious metal to supply the earth for eternity, at our current level of technology, so I also believe in money, lots and lots and lots of it.