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+--- Thread: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition (/showthread.php?tid=15831)
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Aaron S - 05-09-2015
quote:
Originally posted by opihikao
It will be interesting to see how middle ground is found, and if the construction period will be delayed until the last appeal is decided on, which includes the Ceded Land/Crown Lands issue.
There is only one active lawsuit against the TMT, as far as I understand. Mauna Kea Hui appealed Judge Nakamura's decision, which upheld the granting of the conservation district use permit. The Hawaii Intermediate Court of Appeals is slated to hear this case.
The plaintiffs and the University of Hawaii are currently filing their documents with the court. However, I suspect it may be a year or more before the court issues a decision. Bear in mind any decision can be petitioned to the Hawaii Supreme Court, and ultimately the U.S Supreme Court.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 05-09-2015
Aaron S -
Thanks for posting the link to your Civil Beat article a few pages back. It's good to see the timeline and process that the TMT went through over the last decade to get their permits in order.
I would like to hear from any one of the protestors about what they were doing during that time period. Sometimes I get the impression we're at a wedding, the minister says "and if anyone should have any reason... or forever hold your peace." Then, seven years later one of the guests shows up at the front door of the married couple. "Remember me? I just thought of something!"
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - MarkP - 05-09-2015
quote:
Originally posted by shockwave rider
Are you putting forth the idea that Opihikao has the responsibility to respond to every action or statement made by every anti-TMT advocate, and that she is defending them through silence when she does not? Does that mean you are willing to be held responsible for every racist, illogical or dishonest statement made by pro-TMT advocates? Are you willing to be considered to be defending those pro-TMT advocates by your silence when you do not denounce them?
No. I hold her responsible for the things that she herself says. Specifically the conflicts that she herself creates. I hold her responsible for responding to those statements made by those protesters that she specifically endorses. How can anybody not understand this? No wonder this topic is such a cluster-you know what.
If there are any pro-TMT advocates that have said things worthy of condemnation, and if I openly supported those pro-TMT advocates, and if I then turned around and privately said well don't assume I agree with them cause I don't, THEN I would be worthy of criticism.
I should really not have responded to this post as my original statement was clear enough.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Mtviewdude - 05-09-2015
quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
With all due respect Opihikao, you can't just waltz in and apologize as though for an unintended personal slight. This goes to the very heart of whether the protest is reasonable. The "movement" is demanding that the world take them seriously and inherent in that is a claim that their arguments are consistent and logical. If you want to play that card your arguments must be consistent and logical. In fact if you want to support others as they play that card you need to be on the forefront, pointing out their errors and keeping the message on point. When one freak voiced a vile opinion, the silence was deafening from the majority of the anti-TMT crowd. That was almost as bad as the original statement. Another lost opportunity to show the world that they are ready for prime-time. When weirdos at public hearings go on about poison clouds, well yeah there's weirdos in every bunch but again there was no response from the rest of the anti-TMTs to distance themselves other than the more reasonable ones such as yourself saying privately that they don't believe those things. Not good enough. You can't have your own private opinion while backing a mutually exclusive public opinion.
As much as I am against the anti-TMT crowd, I don't think you are being fair to Opihikao. She has been consistent and has been clear about her opinion. From my observations, it sppears she is in the middle trying to find a balance, which i feel is impossible at this time, but kudos for her trying.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Mtviewdude - 05-09-2015
quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
quote:
Originally posted by shockwave rider
Are you putting forth the idea that Opihikao has the responsibility to respond to every action or statement made by every anti-TMT advocate, and that she is defending them through silence when she does not? Does that mean you are willing to be held responsible for every racist, illogical or dishonest statement made by pro-TMT advocates? Are you willing to be considered to be defending those pro-TMT advocates by your silence when you do not denounce them?
No. I hold her responsible for the things that she herself says. Specifically the conflicts that she herself creates. I hold her responsible for responding to those statements made by those protesters that she specifically endorses. How can anybody not understand this? No wonder this topic is such a cluster-you know what.
If there are any pro-TMT advocates that have said things worthy of condemnation, and if I openly supported those pro-TMT advocates, and if I then turned around and privately said well don't assume I agree with them cause I don't, THEN I would be worthy of criticism.
I should really not have responded to this post as my original statement was clear enough.
Please don't get me wrong, I think the TMT-protestors are hypocrites and hope they start cracking down on things up there. The tmt protestors will find any slight, any argument to further their cause while ignoring all their faults and misrepresentations they bring to the table.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - PaulW - 05-09-2015
Okay, finally we've established that it *is* (in part) about the telescope. Now we're getting somewhere.
Please tell me, is it something against this telescope in particular or just telescopes in general?
What is it about this telescope that the protestors don't like? Is it the 7 years of consultation?
Is it the EIS which it passed with flying colors? Is it the money that will be flowing via jobs and grants?
What is it *specifically* about this telescope that you don't like?
Please don't say "clouds of poison gas" (or: "It's not about the telescope!")
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - knieft - 05-09-2015
PaulW,
Have you not been listening? "Enough is enough!" Or "It's all about the aina!"
Cheers,
Kirt
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - MarkP - 05-09-2015
I have a high regard for Opihikao. I have in the past criticized her for being an enabler. She is by and large dealing with the issues but does not hold some of the other protesters to as high a standard. When she made a read-my-lips It's-not-the-telescope statement and then totally contradicted that when challenged, I felt it appropriate to point out what I consider to be a pattern of inconsistency. Coming from her, given her past record of accountability, I would forgive it. Part of the story though is that this sort of thing enables those who do not have nearly the positive track record that she does, and who don't make themselves available to take the heat like she does. Bottom line is even she can earn herself some criticism now and then when it is warranted.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-09-2015
quote:Well, MarkP, let me do a two step for you instead. You took issue with my statement, and my intent was to apologize for the obvious offense taken. Let me explain further, (the two step) given your last few posts.
Originally posted by MarkP
With all due respect Opihikao, you can't just waltz in and apologize as though for an unintended personal slight. This goes to the very heart of whether the protest is reasonable. The "movement" is demanding that the world take them seriously and inherent in that is a claim that their arguments are consistent and logical. If you want to play that card your arguments must be consistent and logical. In fact if you want to support others as they play that card you need to be on the forefront, pointing out their errors and keeping the message on point. When one freak voiced a vile opinion, the silence was deafening from the majority of the anti-TMT crowd. That was almost as bad as the original statement. Another lost opportunity to show the world that they are ready for prime-time. When weirdos at public hearings go on about poison clouds, well yeah there's weirdos in every bunch but again there was no response from the rest of the anti-TMTs to distance themselves other than the more reasonable ones such as yourself saying privately that they don't believe those things. Not good enough. You can't have your own private opinion while backing a mutually exclusive public opinion.
I stand by all of my statements, and they are my own opinion based on personal experiences, doing "homework" (sometimes for years, like in this TMT subject), and personal thought process.
As to your comment below, it leaves me confused, however will try to understand and respond:
When she says she is not in agreement with the movement at least on certain points I am able to understand. When she then turns around and defends, even by silence, the movement when they reiterate the very points that she said she is not in agreement with, I am not able to understand. This has to do with dealing with reality.
Being "silent" is where I'm lost, as my absence/silence (on PW) sometimes is due to real life, and contemplation before writing anything here.
If you think I've been silent with the protestors directly, you are sadly mistaken. Some of these protestors are my ohana, Some of the proTMT staff are my ohana, some of the DLNR cops are my ohana; I take this VERY personally.
I don't agree with everything they are claiming. Either side. They know it, because I am firm in my position once it is reached.
It is not my intent to create conflict, EVER. I take umbrage at that statement. Just wanted to share information as it is received, and to participate in discussion. Helps me while contemplating, to see other opinions, and weed out fact from fiction. Heretofore, I shall attempt to be more careful in making statements that may be misconstrued. Moreso, to avoid having to again, defend my opinion.
Frankly, that's why I always end with...
JMO.
Just trying to find resolution, as one person, who cares about what is happening, and wants to make a difference if possible. Mahalo, shockwave rider, mtviewdude.
ETA: typo
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-09-2015
quote:We were writing at the same time! Mahalo for that and I also appreciate being properly challenged. We all should. Finding balance is my intent, thus my acquiesce to my original statement. My firm belief is this is a much bigger issue than the TMT. This may be part of an entire change in how Mauna Kea is managed, but the bigger issue is the overthrow of the Kingdom (my personal opinion, and the gist of the "movement").
Originally posted by MarkP
I have a high regard for Opihikao. I have in the past criticized her for being an enabler. She is by and large dealing with the issues but does not hold some of the other protesters to as high a standard. When she made a read-my-lips It's-not-the-telescope statement and then totally contradicted that when challenged, I felt it appropriate to point out what I consider to be a pattern of inconsistency. Coming from her, given her past record of accountability, I would forgive it. Part of the story though is that this sort of thing enables those who do not have nearly the positive track record that she does, and who don't make themselves available to take the heat like she does. Bottom line is even she can earn herself some criticism now and then when it is warranted.
Again, mahalo for the somewhat civil discourse.
Respectfully.
JMO.
ETA: [:0] "Read my lips"?!?!?