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+--- Thread: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs (/showthread.php?tid=23524)
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Patricia - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 05:43 PM)HereOnThePrimalEdge Wrote: If ALL you are supposed to be paying for is road maintenance, then that should be VERY CLEAR.
This is from your OP. You ask that the road maintenance info be made clear. I asked you several times, of the HPP road fee how much is road maintenance and how much is not? Could you make that clear? Very clear? So we know what we are discussing?
So, to those of you who would like to know more, I will try my best and will add more info
Please. Do.
Specifically the question I have asked above.
In HPP there are 2 increments, Increment I and Increment II.
In HPP there are no CC&Rs or Declaration. So, unlike Ainaloa, or Leilani, HPP has no HOA and HPP is not a planned community.
In HPP There is a voluntary community association that was formed by 4 HPP owners. Members voluntarily joined this community club and funded it.
The voluntary club, HPPOA (formerly PHH) approached Watumull and Hawaii County (they sued them) because they were unhappy with the condition of the roads and wanted electric brought to the lower part of The Park.
The Watumull's settled and deeded over the easements (roads) that they owned in Increment II to HPPOA (formerly PHH). The County skipped and the courts gave them no obligation to assist in the maintenance of HPP roads "for pepetuity."
When owners in Increment II purchased their land, from David Watumull (his company was HPPC- Hawaiian Paradise Park Corporation) they also signed an agreement stating that they would pay HPPC mandatory road fees for the use and maintenance of the easements. When HPPOA (formerly PHH) were deeded the easements, their club inherited the agreement between Owners in Increment II and the road maintenance (Watumull kept a separate fund, and a road crew). Owners in Increment I were not part of this agreement. Owners in Increment I own their roads collectively each having a 1/5250th interest.
HPPOA (PHH) sued again. This time to "compel" Owners in Increment I to pay into the road fund. This lawsuit went on for decades. In fact, it was never really fully settled. However, HPPOA (PHH) was allowed to "compel" owners in Increment I to pay road fees. But HPPOA (PHH) was ordered to keep road fees and road business separate from their non-road business (the club) and they were also ordered to make, very clear, that HPP owners were not required to be HPPOA (PHH) members and that HPPOA (PHH) was supposed to inform owners of this fact.
I have simplified the above. It is much longer, messier, and more complicated. Still, the bottom line is HPPOA (PHH) inherited a contract from Watumull, regarding Increment II roads. HPPOA (PHH) prevailed in court so that they could "compel" owners (even with no contract) in Increment I to pay road fees. The ONLY fees HPP Owners (not to be confused with members) are required to pay are road maintenance fees. Nothing else.
Road maintenance fees are for road maintenance and road maintenance related costs (such as, rental of the clubhouse for meetings- THAT is "compensation").
100% of road maintenance fees are for roads.
From the "Welcome Letter" currently posted on the HPPOA website.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - MyManao - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 07:11 PM)Patricia Wrote: Blah blah blah..
All that and you can't answer Edge's question.. a simple thing that required at most one sentence and what do you do? Go on as if you're some holier than thou.. nonsense..
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - kalakoa - 01-10-2025
In HPP there are no CC&Rs or Declaration. So, unlike Ainaloa, or Leilani, HPP has no HOA and HPP is not a planned community.
Sounds ripe for expensive legal action ... yet somehow this keeps not happening.
I used to bemoan the Hawaiian Acres road situation. A friend would always point out that "you chose the cheap land and low taxes; you get what you pay for". Viewed as a "nuisance fee", the HPP "dues for shenanigans in the name of roads" is still cheap. Most people AINOKEA.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 01-10-2025
Road maintenance fees are for road maintenance and road maintenance related costs
Are you saying:
1) Road maintenance fees are intended to be 100% for road maintenance
or
2) Road maintenance fees for 2024 or 2025 currently are used and will be used 100% for road maintenance
?
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Obie - 01-10-2025
Let me answer for her and then she will come in with her usual word salad comment and correct me.
She believes that the annual association fee should 100% go toward the roads.
There is this from the bylaws and the last several boards have taken this 5% and made a nice little nest egg and have chosen to supply 4 1 acre plots of land to allow all owners of HPP to have a mailbox where they can get mail addressed to their street address.
"Section 3. Compensation for use of Non-Road Maintenance Assets. The road maintenance funds are
restricted funds and shall be used exclusively for road maintenance activities. A portion of road
maintenance funds shall be exclusively used to compensate the Association General Fund for the use of
the Association's non-road maintenance assets for road maintenance purposes. The amount of
compensation shall be determined annually by the board and shall not exceed 5% of road maintenance
funds collected in any given year."
This year's road fees are $435.00 per year so $21.75 of everyone's road fees went into a non-road fund.
There are currently 2000 mailboxes and over 8000 lots. 6000 of us will get mailboxes rather than having to drive all over the island. If all $435.00 were applied to road paving, it would be 20 or 30 years before my road would be paved.
At least I would get an amenity that is fairly common other places.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Chas - 01-10-2025
Yeah, and unfortunately, this wise and practical decision by the board to get us mailboxes will cost a lot more due to the lawsuits filed by people who already have mailboxes and won't be able to walk to them anymore. Horrors!
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 01-10-2025
This year's road fees are $435.00 per year so $21.75 of everyone's road fees went into a non-road fund.
Thank you Obie. That’s the number I was looking for. $20 so 6000 people can have a mailbox? It’s pretty hard to start a revolution, overturn the establishment for $20. No wonder Patricia made such a concerted effort to hide that detail from her manifesto.
people who already have mailboxes and won't be able to walk to them anymore. Horrors!
I’d rather walk to my existing mailbox, but wouldn’t file a lawsuit over it. If I’m forced to make a choice I’d go with “everybody gets a mailbox!” but I’ve never heard a reason why it’s not possible that makes any reasonable sense.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Patricia - 01-10-2025
No word salad.
As I have pointed out before, HPP's specific situation is complicated and messy. And while other substandard subdivisions in Puna, Hawaii may have their issues as well, a lot of them "lucked out," because HPP was the first court case, regarding the maintenance of (easements) in the substandard subdivisions. Still, with newer people coming in and expecting "amenities," which are not funded, there is and are going to be, more problems.
The 5% to which Mr. O refers WAS originally a 5% equipment fund, which was set-up because BEFORE HPPOA (PHH) prevailed in compelling Increment I to pay road fee money, HPPOA (PHH) was not collecting enough money from Increment II to effectively service the roads. So (remember that separate road fund and road crew?) HPPOA (the voluntary club) was having to supplement the separate road account and road crew using their voluntary club member dues. This did not make HPPOA (PHH) members happy. So, HPPOA (PHH) required the road crew (who had their own budget) to set aside 5% of all road maintenance fees collected for equipment replacement/maintenance. In addition HPPOA (PHH) made it CLEAR to the road maintenance crew that if they exceeded their budget and HPPOA (PHH) the voluntary club had to bail out the road crew using voluntary member money, then HPPOA (PHH) would require the road crew to reimburse them (compensation for the use of non-road assets).
Later, when the road crew and road budget were absorbed by HPPOA (PHH) there were still compensation issues. As the road crew seems to have owed the voluntary club money ($24,000). So, by court order, HPPOA (PHH) was allowed to recompense themselves that $24,000 and were allowed, in subsequent years, to recompense themselves, UP TO 5% of the road money collected, for any CLUB MONEY or resources (the rental of the club house) that were/are used to conduct road maintenance work.
Unfortunately, what HPPOA (PHH) began to do is siphon of ALL the 5% from road fees, every year, even though they did not use the full 5% (it doesn't cost that much to rent the clubhouse). HPPOA (PHH) did this because they could (the court would never know and most HPP owners don't know much about the court cases anyway. Hence, the "nest egg."
IF, as on Orchidland, your substandard subdivision in Puna, Hawaii has a Road Maintenance Association, THEN every penny you pay is 100% roads.
IF, as in Ainaloa, you have an HOA, your fees are allocated (so much for road maintenance, so much for other "amenities").
IF, as in HPPOA (PHH) you have a voluntary club that is collecting road fees, then HPP OWNERS pay road maintenance fees and 100% (even "compensation" for rental of the clubhouse for meetings) are paid toward road maintenance.
IF, as in HPPOA (PHH) you have a voluntary club that is collecting road fees, and if your are an owner AND HAVE ALSO AGREED TO BE A MEMBER (AFTER BEING INFORMED THAT YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO BE A MEMBER) THEN YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO PAY the road fees (of which 100% is supposed to go toward road maintenance activities) and VOLUNTARY MEMBERSHIP DUES IN ADDITION TO ROAD FEES. (All caps are, emphasis added).
I hope this is clear. But if not, please let me know and I will try to break it down further. As I said, it is complicated.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - HiloJulie - 01-10-2025
As an outside observer (not a resident of HPP) but having read all of Patricia's postings here on PunaWeb as well as having numerous dialogs with Patricia, I cannot recall her ever answering anyone's question.
Ever.
Also, I can't help but think most of her spiel is in a Word Document that is just cut and pasted into whatever social media venue used. A good example is why must every mention of HPPOA have its former name appended to it?
I can't imagine anyone retyping this text over and over repeatedly as Patricia continually demonstrates.
I would think Patricia would get much more of a "buy in," right or wrong, from her targeted audience if she just once answered any question presented to her. It's like asking someone what time it is and instead of being told the time, you get a half a day sermon on how to make a watch, or as in this case, a half page of the cut and pasted rhetoric as well as a litany of personal attacks and insults against anyone who asks a question.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - MyManao - 01-10-2025
Interesting. I think of Pat and Hilo as the same person. Same personality same world view. Funny watching them duke it out.. cat fights with itself.