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+--- Thread: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition (/showthread.php?tid=15831)
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-11-2015
Then, there is this article (Civil Beat - *Snipped / More at link)
Kristin Momoa is a lifelong resident of O’ahu and strongly opposes the Thirty Meter Telescope project on Mauna Kea.
The Corporations and individuals who support the Thirty Meter Telescope have built their justification on assumptions. Twisting and bending history and truth in an attempt to win support from those unfamiliar with the facts or unwilling to do their own research.
A prime example of this can be found on the front page of the TMT propaganda website www.maunakeaandtmt.org in this quote from King Kalakaua in 1874: “It will afford me unfeigned satisfaction if my kingdom can add its quota toward the successful accomplishment of the most important astronomical observation of the present century and assist, however humbly, the enlightened nations of the earth in these costly enterprises…”
What they don’t tell you is that the Telescope Kalakaua was referring to was only a few feet long mounted on a tripod in a small yard. The images and the full story, “Astronomy in the Sandwich Islands: The 1874 Transit of Venus” by Michael E. Chauvin, can be found online in The Hawaiian Journal of History here.
TMT makes an assumption that Kalakaua’s statement should be held in perpetuity and implies approval of any telescope regardless. In this same document, the expedition leader refers to Hawaiians as savages, but this is also not mentioned by TMT. They simply chose one statement from a historical record and twisted it to suit their needs.
http://www.civilbeat.com/connections/tmt-misinforms-with-assumptions/
(Sigh...working on the bumper sticker, ironyak. [xx(])
JMO.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Tink - 05-11-2015
Excuse me for my lack of education on this matter, but what were the original structures built on the summit by the Kanaka Maoli for the high priests used for? Was it to be closer to the Gods for messages, or were they used by the high priests to look at the galaxies for guidance? I know that Mauna Kea was kapu for the commoner, so what guidance were the high priests using/ looking for while up there?
Community begins with Aloha
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-11-2015
Aloha, Tink. Not able to provide "links" to what we were taught by kupuna, I'll try to respond below with what links apply to your questions: (*All snipped - More at links)
While it is the dwelling place of the goddess Poli'ahu it is also associated with the Hawaiian deities Lilinoe and Waiau. The summit was considered the realm of the gods and in ancient times was kapu (forbidden) to all but the highest chiefs and priests. Occasionally Hawaiian ali'i (royalty) would make the long trek to the top, the last royal visitor being Queen Emma in 1881 who led her companions on the arduous 6 hour journey to the top to see the summit and rejuvenate herself in sacred Lake Waiau.
http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/info/vis/culture.html
The cultural explanation of Poliahu and Kukahau‘ula:
http://www.mauna-a-wakea.info/maunakea/B2_kukahauula.html
and this:
Mauna Kea, not just simply the "white mountain" because it's periodically snow-covered. But that it is Mauna Akea, Ka Piko a Wakea. The summit, the piko that ties this earth to Wakea, the God father who is the sky.
They see it as the piko kaulana o ka ‘aina, the famous peak, summit of the land. But that peak, or piko, is also what we would call navel or belly button. It's that which connects you back to the generations preceding you.
‘Aha ho’owili mo’o, this line, this cord that connects the Hawaiian people from these lands, from these islands, which were the children of the gods or creative forces of nature, back to their cosmic origins.
http://www.mauna-a-wakea.info/maunakea/F2_whitemountain.html
The history (partial) of Mauna A Wakea, with the *"Kumulipo" explanation at link:
This section of the study provides readers with a general overview of the cultural and natural3 landscapes of Mauna Kea and the #699;âina mauna. The narratives include discussions on Hawaiian settlement, population expansion, evolution of the traditional land management practices, and attachment to place. We find that the ancient Hawaiian system of land management is rooted in the beliefs, practices, traditions and values of the people, and that these formed the basis of the sustainable relationship shared between the Hawaiian people and the land. As this system evolved, the ahupua#699;a of Ka#699;ohe and Humu#699;ula were established as the largest lands of the Mauna Kea region. There are also some 75 additional ahupua#699;a in the Hilo District; 82 ahupua#699;a in the Hâmâkua District; and one ahupua#699;a with several large #699;ili divisions in the Kohala District, that rest upon the slopes of, and are enriched by the tangible and intangible resources of Mauna Kea. These traditional land divisions defined the rights of access of people to the resources necessary to life and culture; they were intricately tied to the lifeways of the people; and are reflected in the on-going cultural attachment4 of Hawaiians to Mauna Kea.
http://www.ulukau.org/elib/cgi-bin/library?e=d-0mauna-000Sec--11haw-50-20-frameset-book--1-010escapewin&a=d&d=D0.4&toc=0
(*Note: "Kumulipo" definition: The Hawaiian Kumulipo is a genealogical prayer chant linking the royal family to which it belonged not only to primary gods belonging to the whole people and worshiped in common with allied Polynesian groups, not only to deified chiefs born into the living world, the Ao, within the family line, but to the stars in the heavens and the plants and animals useful to life on earth, who must also be named within the chain of birth and their representatives in the spirit world thus be brought into the service of their children who live to carry on the line in the world of mankind… [Beckwith 1951:8])
This explains some of the "old" structures:
Based on field work undertaken between 1975 and 1997, a total of 93 archaeological sites have been identified in surveys covering approximately 3,000 acres, including the immediate summit ridge areas.
Of the 93 sites, 76 are shrines.
The most common of the archaeological features on Mauna Kea, shrines are characterized by the presence of one or more upright stones.
[Archaeologist Patrick] McCoy speculates that the simple shrines were built and used by small family groups and the larger, more complex structures were built and maintained by a priesthood.
A significant pattern is the virtual absence of archaeological sites at the very top of the mountain. McCoy states that the "top of the mountain was clearly a sacred precinct that must, moreover, have been under a kapu and accessible to only the highest chiefs or priests."
Most of the shrines in the Science Reserve are found on the northern and eastern slopes just above and below the 13,000 foot elevation. This pattern suggests that most of those who journeyed to the summit area came from the Hamakua and Hilo sides of the mountain.
Draft EIS
Mauna Kea Science Reserve Master Plan
Appendix E
Mauna Kea Science Reserve Archaeological Site Inventory:
Formal, Functional, and Spatial Attributes
Patrick McCoy
1999
http://www.mauna-a-wakea.info/maunakea/F5_shrines.html
Structures addressed:
Analyses of debitage collected from the Mauna Kea Adze Quarry in Hawaii will be compared with experimentally produced data to achieve the aim of the paper. The results of these analyses indicate that the labour forces at the Mauna Kea Adze Quarry were well organized. It is suggested that labour parties were organized into groups of two, with expert craftsmen working where material was abundant and novices or apprentices working where they could practise their craft without wasting important resources.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0305440386900555
Finally,
In Hawaiian traditions of creation, the earth mother Papahânaumoku and the sky father Wâkea created the islands, with Hawai‘i Island being the first. “Mauna Kea is considered to be kupuna (elder), the first born, and is held in high esteem. In native traditions, Mauna Kea is identified as ‘Ka Mauna a Wâkea’ (The Mountain of Wâkea —traditional god and father of Hawai‘i—who’s name is also written as Kea),” described Pualani Kanaka‘ole Kanahele in a 1999 oral history study by Kumu Pono Associates. Because Mauna Kea was the firstborn child of Papa and Wâkea, the mauna is considered the piko (navel) of Hawai‘i Island.
http://www.welivemana.com/articles/sacredness-mauna-kea-explained
Apologies for the long post, much more at links provided. Our kupuna always said the Mauna was "Kapu". Still have not gone where the "Kapu" area is (and will never go; only went to the Visitor's Center area). Struggling to take Mr. Tom up on his offer for a tour (just being honest, sorry, Sir).
As an aside, Queen Emma was very drawn to Mauna A Wakea, as were other Ali'i, and the stories kupuna shared were sometimes unbelievable. Kahuna and Kahunanui practiced their "worship" there. Some are buried within Mauna A Wakea. Frankly, when we were keiki, the stories of Mauna A Wakea were a tad frightening.
JMO.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Guest - 05-11-2015
Mahalo, Opihikao. Very informative and greatly appreciated to read about some Hawaiian history. Trying to picture the treks to the summit years ago and how Maunakea would have looked having not been disturbed yet? Most of my cars or vehicles owned here wouldn't make the trip Over saddle road without over heating, no chance making it to the summit. A few questions for you Opihikao. What were some of the reasons the alii would make the journey to the summit, how long would these trips take, and how many would take the trips? Why would some want to bath or swim in the sacred lake, maybe vitality?. Anyway mahalo again.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - PaulW - 05-11-2015
"What they don’t tell you is that the Telescope Kalakaua was referring to was only a few feet long mounted on a tripod in a small yard. The images and the full story, “Astronomy in the Sandwich Islands: The 1874 Transit of Venus” by Michael E. Chauvin, can be found online in The Hawaiian Journal of History here."
The article referred to is here:
http://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10524/149/JL27191.pdf
Of course, that is a complete misrepresentation of the facts - to imply there was just one small telescope.
The observation of the transit of Venus was a major undertaking involving observers on three Hawaiian islands for months on end, each in their own facility with multiple instruments. The King was a very enthusiastic supporter of the whole operation and let the British stay rent-free. The King was supporting the use of cutting-edge technology to allow the whole world to share in acquisition of valuable astronomical knowledge - in this case, the distance to the Sun. It is very similar to what is happening today, with the majority of the Hawaiian population welcoming the telescope, as they did then.
The usual lies and distortions from the anti-science TMT protestors. Thanks for the link though, I enjoyed the article!
ETA: I meant Kristin Momoa, not you Opihikao!
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - rainyjim - 05-11-2015
I find when people go on like dakine it's usually because they're covering up their own insecurities, their own BS, otherwise they wouldn't have the need to tell 'haloes' to shut up and leave if they have a problem with their viewpoint.
And...how is it you are able to speak about the majority of the Hawaiians point of view? Do you have some source for this assumption? Or are you just making stuff up to suit yourself?
Just a stab in the dark but it could have something to do with the 7 years of approval processes undergone and passed during which the majority of the Hawaiian people approved the telescope!
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-11-2015
quote:E kala mai, rainyjim, with respect, the "majority" of Hawaiians could not have supported nor been against the TMT. The "elected officials", and the self purported representatives of the Hawaiian Kingdom/Nation (whatever it is) are not representative of the "majority". (Note: There are over 400,000 "Native Hawaiian" people today as of the year 2000.)
Originally posted by rainyjim
I find when people go on like dakine it's usually because they're covering up their own insecurities, their own BS, otherwise they wouldn't have the need to tell 'haloes' to shut up and leave if they have a problem with their viewpoint.
And...how is it you are able to speak about the majority of the Hawaiians point of view? Do you have some source for this assumption? Or are you just making stuff up to suit yourself?
Just a stab in the dark but it could have something to do with the 7 years of approval processes undergone and passed during which the majority of the Hawaiian people approved the telescope!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Hawaiians
Native Hawaiians trace their ancestry back to the original Polynesian settlers of Hawaii. According to the U.S. Census Bureau report for 2000, there are 401,162 people who identified themselves as being "Native Hawaiian" alone or in any combination, but they are not considered Native Americans.
That is part of the problem today; Some believe the majority was not represented well.
As an example, OHA chose not to enter into the Contested Case Hearing (July, 2014 - Links provided below).
http://hawaiitribune-herald.com/news/oha-will-not-pursue-contested-case-hearing-tmt-sublease
The entire OHA office position and discussion prior to decision to not participate: (*Note - Board Meeting Trascript / PDF file)
http://tinyurl.com/k2nxvu4
gypsy, perhaps another thread later on, and I don't know the answers to your questions, but will do research and ask remaining kupuna.
Dakine speaks truth a lot of the time, if you choose to understand it. Although some may find his/her approach abrasive or divisive, it is dakine's candor in expressing belief and opinion that I admire. Some people don't have the gumption to state what is in their na'au openly, without worry of being chastised. (Jumping off soap box; e kala mai...lol)
Mahalo for this continued good discussion. Gonna go make a mayonnaise sandwich. Best Foods only!
JMO.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - TomK - 05-11-2015
"Struggling to take Mr. Tom up on his offer for a tour (just being honest, sorry, Sir)."
Understood, Opihikao, no need to apologise! If you change your mind in the future, just let me know, but the offer still stands for members of your family - I just can't take too many in one go. My impression is you have a rather large family. [
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RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Wao nahele kane - 05-11-2015
"Some people don't have the gumption to state what is in their na'au openly, without worry of being chastised."
I'm glad you posted that Opihikao because I was struggling with what you shared with us in your previous post about what the mountain was used for.
What I'm struggling with is how to share my thoughts on what you posted without ripping older Hawaiian culture a new Puka for being so damned psychologically abusive to its children, in effect crippling them for life both emotionally and intellectually. Yes that system was created and its lore formed to subjugate a people. I certainly hope such crippling story telling isn't shared with the youngsters today and folks wait until a more appropriate age or emotional development has been reached before unleashing such lore upon them.
Sorry but that's what was stirred within me about all that.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - PunaMauka2 - 05-11-2015
Wao nahele kane,
just leaving it for the taking or leaving as a general reminder of (or introduction to) a couple of basic sociological concepts in relation to overstating cultural (or microcultural) identity and the byproducts not so uncommonly involved.
"Yeah, that is curios. Sort of bizarre in fact."
hmm, a cultural Stockholm Syndrome? ha, probably not the best analogy. if anything i'd guess rather more an overcompensation along the lines of a sense of fairness or perhaps some foggy sense of latent guilt. ??...or sometimes simply just going with the trendy flow. i dunno.
anyway, been enjoying to read many of your posts over the past couple of weeks. getting at many interesting ideas!