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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-22-2019
"Tom, is it true that the James Webb telescope with be more advanced than the TMT?"
Kaimana, that's really an impossible question to answer as they are two different pieces of technology designed to work in completely different environments. In addition, the JWST is built to work at infrared wavelengths that are difficult or impossible to observe from the ground whereas the TMT is a much larger telescope designed at both infrared and optical wavelengths. The TMT will out-perform the JWST when it comes to resolution (i.e., how detailed an image is) but the JWST will out-perform the TMT for sensitivity in the mid-infrared. Note the JWST won't operate at optical wavelengths, so the TMT wins there.
In addition, because the instrumentation on the JWST is designed for the mid-infrared, it has to carry coolant to keep the instruments cold. Unlike the Hubble, the JWST won't be serviceable by astronauts, so it has a limited lifetime of about 10-years whereas the TMT, with continual upgrades to its instrumentation, has a lifetime of several decades.
Another thing to remember is the cost. The TMT is supposed to cost $1.4 billion (probably up to $2 billion now); the JWST costs is currently $9 billion and estimated to be $10 billion at the end of its lifetime.
There's an awful lot more I could write, but that's the gist of things.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalianna - 07-22-2019
I have followed this thread closely and with an open mind. When this began I favored building the telescope. It passed the courts and 72 percent of Hawaiians agree, right? But as this drama has unfolded, the ensuing events and conduct of the people taking part in them have left a deep impression on me:
On the one hand, I see the kupuna on the front line, living up on the mountain in harsh conditions, forming a large nuturing community, watching them protest non-violently but steadfastly and with great dignity despite the lack of personal gain for any of them.
And I see that it's not just a dozen wackos but there are many people I respect and/or know who are offering their support. More than a thousand of them.
Then I see the state's response: The telescope is legal. We're starting construction/we're not starting construction, we're arresting/we're not-arresting people. The road is open/closed. Clueless.
Now which of these groups deserves my support?
The reason this island is special is because of the history and cultural traditions of the Hawaiian people, the folks that brought us aloha.
If we build this telescope it will tear this island apart. It's already tearing this island apart. And I've come to the conclusion that the price of progress at the expense of the spirit of this island is too high. Sometimes what is legal just isn't right.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-22-2019
If we build this telescope it will tear this island apart.
If we don’t build the telescope it will also tear the island apart.
A vast majority of the population will see that rules, laws, and court decisions mean nothing. People who play by the rules get screwed. They may not be as vocal or as noticeable as the protestors at Mauna Kea Access Road at the moment, but there will be some reaction, perhaps in the next election, or in their dealings with State & County bureaucracy. I can’t predict what form it will take as so many types of people are involved.
Either way, there will be a rending in the fabric of the islands.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalakoa - 07-22-2019
A vast majority of the population will see that rules, laws, and court decisions mean nothing.
Many already do. There's a large contingent in HPP, for example.
there will be some reaction, perhaps in the next election
Voting already doesn't matter. Reaction should be along the lines of "an unpermitted shack and cesspool is my traditional cultural/religious practice". To be fair, high-end resorts should be permissible, because they also are a traditional cultural/religious practice.
If the State then claims that only "some people" can enjoy traditional culture/religion... good luck with that, see you in court.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-22-2019
the anti-science crowd
Who is anti-science? I mean beside Trump? Who?
Do you really think all those opposing the TMT, or asking that their rights be restored, are anti-science? Are you really that small minded as to believe one (opposition to more construction on the mountain) equates to the other (anti-science)? Really?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-22-2019
only "some people" can enjoy traditional culture/religion...
An announcement will be forthcoming on the newly discovered Menehune religious practices. Exceedingly ancient, indigenous, and flexible. It fortuitously includes exactly what each worshiper requires for his or her “spiritual nourishment and inspiration of a great and lasting value.”
They’ll start by asking for their island back, with the complete restoration of the adze quarry, one of their most sacred gathering places for observances, which was plundered and desecrated by invaders.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Seeb - 07-22-2019
If they have to pull out, I think TMT could when a lawsuit against the state because the state acted in “bad faith”. Spent millions following every law and the Lt.gov basically say FO
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-22-2019
Well, it looks like our Lt. Gov. may be anti-science too. Image that. A full on seriously respected scientist, (an emergency room physician is a scientist or sorts, yes?) who is loved by people throughout the state, and the second highest political figure, says...
From: https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/07/22/safe-loved-lieutenant-governor-visits-mauna-kea-week-after-tmt-protests-begin/
After visiting protest at Mauna Kea, LG says TMT should ‘move on’ if brokered deal can’t be found
After a lengthy visit Monday with TMT protesters blocking access to Mauna Kea’s summit, Lt. Gov. Josh Green said the controversial telescope project might have to “move on” if an agreement with its opponents can’t be reached.
He also said he’d urged the governor to remove law enforcement from the mountain.
“One project can’t be allowed to disrupt the fabric of our state’s ohana,” Green told Hawaii News Now. “So if there can’t be a brokered peace that prevents that, then the TMT would have to move on.”
Green is the highest-ranking public official to visit the large Big Island protest, which is blocking construction equipment for the Thirty Meter Telescope from ascending to Mauna Kea’s summit, and his statements Monday appear to indicate he’s not sure whether the project can be saved.
“I think we have to have a reckoning once and for all about if TMT should go forward," Green said. "If we go forward with the TMT without absolute buy-in from the Hawaiian people that will mean that we have not respected the Hawaiian people and after all, we are in Hawaii.”
Gee, maybe TomK should call his buddies and let them know the TMT ain't a done deal, eh?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - reni - 07-22-2019
to borrow a few quotes from others that have posted.....
"Per latest update from HNN, Lt Gov Green says the TMT might have to "move on" if an agreement with its opponents can't be reached."
"Then I see the state's response: The telescope is legal. We're starting construction/we're not starting construction, we're arresting/we're not-arresting people. The road is open/closed. Clueless."
So what's changed with our State's approach? They permit something, They approve it and it just doesn't happen...Sorry guys. You have spent millions, we have spent countless tax pay dollars but oh well, guess you just need to move on but we'll keep our jobs. No ramifications from the voters because we can blame the Hawaiians. ( you know that group of our society that drive oversized trucks and live on welfare.)
So pathetic that we allow politicians to play us like this....play us against one another.
What if the State and the U of H had lived up to it's previous promises......what if there was truly a decommission plan the Hawaiian could trust in? Would things be different today?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-22-2019
And BTW, I would be saddened to see the TMT not get built here. But, as Josh said, one project can’t be allowed to disrupt the fabric of our state’s ohana and I agree with him wholeheartedly.