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+--- Thread: TMT groundbreaking - live (/showthread.php?tid=14781)
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - PaulW - 04-11-2015
It might be a good tactic by Ige. Just let things cool down and wait for the kooks to get distracted by the next hip cause, maybe stopping a hospital from being built somewhere.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - macuu222 - 04-12-2015
It was 2 years ago today....
http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2013/04/12/hawaii-land-board-grants-use-permit.html
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - gakeating - 04-12-2015
I don't think that the original navigators would object to something that allowed their descendants to see beyond the stars that they used to get here. I think that exploration should not be limited to a universe that can be accessed by canoe. The aina does not stop at the high tide line.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - lavalava - 04-12-2015
quote:
Originally posted by Kalena
To me, the events on Mauna Kea are an expression of the conflict between the indigenous peoples (and their supporters) and the industrialized powers of the world. This conflict has been going on for several centuries and has almost played out. The indigenous peoples of the world were hunters, fisherfolk, gatherers and farmers, but most of them have lost so much of their land that they are now a part of a more powerful dominant culture. The world view of most native peoples is one in which the cosmos is viewed as sacred and the responisbility of humans is to sustain it by maintaining balance or equilibrium. That's a world view very different from industrialized cultures.
With industrialization, the environment has become external, to be understood and ultimately used in service of human needs. If the view of native peoples is one of the environment as a web, the industrialized view is more of a pyramid with humans at the apex. Other forms of life serve human needs.
I am not against knowledge. But I find myself wondering at this time whether the view that science trumps all is really serving our planet. Our planet is faltering under our endeavors. Our children and grandchildren are facing a perilous future. Perhaps viewing the cosmos as sacred is not so far off the mark. I believe that's why the protesters are gaining so much support.
So is it then safe to assume that you dont take part in todays modern world? No cars no phones no refridgerators?
Do you live off the land? You obviously use a computer but are anti industrialization. Sounds pretty hypocritical if you ask me. People like you who wax poetic about the old loin cloth days whilst reaping all the benefits of our modern society are a joke. What a maroon!
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - lavalava - 04-12-2015
Everyone not a Menehune should leave by tomorrow.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - Johnd - 04-12-2015
Nice showing "Hawaiian nation".... And all because of A telescope. The nearest thing these bozos get to do up in Mauna Kea is shovel snow into their pickups, not worship deities. For crying out loud people, could you ever find a better way to make a point for a change, that will not make you look like troglodytes.
Time to get up to speed folks, navigating the oceans with the stars had its day; we have things like Rover you know, that are mapping the surface of Mars nowadays.
Btw, awful amount of people Up there with no jobs to go to, time to enact a compulsory work exchange program for all able body food stamp recipients!
jdo
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - Chunkster - 04-12-2015
May I respectfully suggest a few things for Hawaiians to crusade for which might be more productive than blocking the TMT:
1. Demand meaningful reform of the OHA/DHHL so that people don't die of old age waiting for a land allotment and crony companies don't get contracts at inflated prices.
2. Insist that the lackluster Hawaii public education system do a better job preparing all Hawaii's children to be more successful. Hint: Charter schools seem to be a method already being used with some success by both Hawaiians and others.
3. Decide just what it is in the way of a nation that you are trying to create. There seems to be nothing even approaching a consensus on what a Hawaiian government would look like. The monarchists blithely ignore the fact that Hawaiians were already a minority at the time of the overthrow. A proper Kingdom restoration would have to recognize the rights of the non-Hawaiian descendants of the Kingdom. (There's also the problem of just who the King/Queen would be.) U.S. Interior Department tribal recognition was not exactly well-received in recent hearings, but at least seems to be on offer.
All three of these things are much, much harder than blocking the road to the Mauna Kea summit, but they would accomplish more and even generate more good will. Think about it.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - ironyak - 04-12-2015
Originally posted by lavalava
So is it then safe to assume that you dont take part in todays modern world? No cars no phones no refridgerators?
Do you live off the land? You obviously use a computer but are anti industrialization. Sounds pretty hypocritical if you ask me.
I don't understand this interpretation that a critique of development is only valid if you "live off the land". Industrialization - love it or leave it! This seems particularly out of place here in Puna, where support for preserving natural areas and the environment is more pronounced than many other places and for some is part of the appeal.
Why is the notion of balance so difficult, both in understanding the benefits and drawbacks of development, as well as in how these conversations are handled? Do you really believe that someone's ideas about these complex topics an be reduced to such simplistic black or white terms?
Much of what Kelena said is simply history. How to address it is more complex, but it would be informative for all of us to welcome and listen to others' ideas, instead of putting your own words in their mouth.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - lavalava - 04-12-2015
quote:
Originally posted by Chunkster
May I respectfully suggest a few things for Hawaiians to crusade for which might be more productive than blocking the TMT:
1. Demand meaningful reform of the OHA/DHHL so that people don't die of old age waiting for a land allotment and crony companies don't get contracts at inflated prices.
2. Insist that the lackluster Hawaii public education system do a better job preparing all Hawaii's children to be more successful. Hint: Charter schools seem to be a method already being used with some success by both Hawaiians and others.
3. Decide just what it is in the way of a nation that you are trying to create. There seems to be nothing even approaching a consensus on what a Hawaiian government would look like. The monarchists blithely ignore the fact that Hawaiians were already a minority at the time of the overthrow. A proper Kingdom restoration would have to recognize the rights of the non-Hawaiian descendants of the Kingdom. (There's also the problem of just who the King/Queen would be.) U.S. Interior Department tribal recognition was not exactly well-received in recent hearings, but at least seems to be on offer.
All three of these things are much, much harder than blocking the road to the Mauna Kea summit, but they would accomplish more and even generate more good will. Think about it.
Hear hear!!
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - pbmaise - 04-12-2015
The US was not founded as a "Christian" nation.
It was founded upon Deism.
Under Deism there is zero tolerance to sacred books, mysterious that only a priest can interpret, and arguments like this one.
If the religious had there way, women would all be covered head to toe, not allowed to eat bananas, and burned alive when their husbands died. (Combines multiple beliefs)
Under Deism logic and man's best effort is paramount and not what a mystic reveals after going into an epileptic fit.
According to many that argue here, logic, and man's interests have no consequence. Instead it is god's or multiple gods.
The watershed falls under logical argument. It can be argued how much impact the site will have. It also can be compared to miles of existing pavement that contains carcinogenic hydrocarbons that leach into the soil. Or compared against goats eating all the native plant life.
If weighed on this basis, TMT instead of harming the watershed could actually be helping it by calling it to attention. Then, more people may recognize the problem of herds of goats.
If weighed against mythical and mystery it can hardly win.
However, Native Hawaiians lost their arguement of sacred worship site once. They were claiming a beach as an sacred ancient site. However, the beach didn't even exist yet.
Since TMT isn't even at the summit, how do they claim ancient worshipping site here?