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+--- Thread: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition (/showthread.php?tid=15831)
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Wao nahele kane - 05-16-2015
Dakine, it is fact and it's the same fact that you are subject to. Like it or not, get used to it.
"United States: Supreme Court Rules that U.S. Apology for Overthrowing Hawaiian Monarchy Does Not Affect Hawaii Public Lands"
http://www.loc.gov/lawweb/servlet/lloc_news?disp3_l205401201_text
Fact: a thing that is indisputably the case.
If I were to have seen an aberration that I interpreted as being a ghost it could not be considered a fact that I saw a ghost. The only facts therein would be that I saw an aberration and I interpreted it to be a ghost but that does not mean there was a ghost or that what I saw was of ghostly origin. This would be considered an inexplicable experience. This does not mean the experience is invalid.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - PaulW - 05-16-2015
"Just taking a guess at this question, PaulW, the TMT will be built on "Ceded" Lands/Crown Lands. "
Thank you for your answer. Fair point. But then shouldn't there be protests against everything being built everywhere in Hawaii?
I didn't see anyone laying down in front of the bulldozers on H130.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - ironyak - 05-16-2015
Originally posted by PaulW
But then shouldn't there be protests against everything being built everywhere in Hawaii?
Because not everything is built on ceded lands. Given there have been no less than 3 related threads here lately on these topics, it is not encouraging that a basic understanding of the history, geography, or legal restrictions of the ceded lands has not sunk in. I'll repeat another link, although it will probably not be read by those who need it most.
http://www.civilbeat.com/2010/10/5914-what-are-the-ceded-lands-of-hawaii/
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 05-16-2015
Thanks ironyak,
Here's a map of ceded lands on Big Island to illustrate the article:
http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2009/Mar/31/hawaii90331051AR_b.jpg
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - Wao nahele kane - 05-16-2015
Some may not be aware of the current events happening at the federal level regarding the Native Hawaiian matters. This link should bring you up to speed.
http://www.doi.gov/ohr/index.cfm
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - TomK - 05-16-2015
Dakine,
"Tom, with all due respect, please listen to this point. Even if from your perspective it is all about the TMT please consider it. Take it to heart, for (imo) it is the key to understanding the emotions that we are witnessing. It may be difficult, but I honestly believe it will be very enlightening once you understand and appreciate this one point."
Please, I am not stupid. I understand that people are saying it's not about the TMT. Really, I do. However, many people are making it about the TMT. That was the point of my post. Goal posts are being moved constantly depending on which small group is loudest. Even OHA decisions aren't consistent.
MarkP made the point much more succinctly than I could:
"If Kane and others appear to be rambling it is because they are trying to address the convoluted mishmash freely offered by the anti-TMT crowd as justification for their stance. If it is not about the water table, don't mention the water table."
At some point I also think you should take a step back and consider some of the insulting and repulsive stuff you have posted. I know you have apologised for some of that stuff, but please, think before you post.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - rainyjim - 05-17-2015
From:
http://www.civilbeat.com/2010/10/5914-what-are-the-ceded-lands-of-hawaii/
"During the pre-contact period and until the Mahele (division) of 1846-48, the Aina (land) in Hawaii was shared by the Native Hawaiian people, under the leadership of their Moi (king) and Alii (chiefs)."
Somehow I don't find the term 'shared' to be the most accurate.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - TomK - 05-18-2015
An interesting blog post from Andrew Cooper that pretty much backs up my impressions about the TMT protest. There are certainly those who believe it is about sovereignty, but others are protesting for different reasons and just add to the noise.
http://darkerview.com/wordpress/?p=15608
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - opihikao - 05-18-2015
FYI: A different perspective, from one whose feet are in both worlds:
(*Snipped - More at link)
http://www.civilbeat.com/connections/why-i-declined-the-tmt-think-scholarship/
Why I Declined the TMT THINK Scholorship
By Narissa P. Spies
Narrissa Spies is originally from Hawaii Island and is currently a Ph.D. student in the biology department at UH Manoa.
As a Native Hawaiian scientist, I struggled with my decision on whether to support the Thirty Meter Telescope project.
On one hand, the scientist in me knew that this instrument would make discoveries that would advance knowledge for all mankind, but the Native Hawaiian in me knew that this was a culturally sensitive issue that was hurting an entire group of people.
I struggled with my position on this sensitive topic, and I turned to what I know best as a scientist, which was to gather all the facts and make an informed decision for myself.
I read the both volumes of the Environmental Impact Study, and many other documents, and I heard arguments from both sides on why they were supporting their cause. When I came to my decision to oppose construction of the TMT, a large portion of it hung on the ethical concern that I had with what I read in the EIS about how our cultural resources had been substantially and adversely affected, and how that would continue to be the case with construction of TMT. Rather than offering realistic ways of mitigating future degradation, and repairing past damage to resources, TMT offered to start a STEM scholarship fund to support science education.
To me it felt that this was a payoff, a way to buy the cultural resources that are sacred to so many. You cannot purchase a culture, because it is something that is invaluable. As a Native Hawaiian scientist, I felt that this drove a wedge between the Native Hawaiian community and science, when the two can work together quite well.
It put me in a particularly tough place where I was forced to pick a side, and I have taken quite a lot of criticism for my decision to oppose the TMT. I also felt that the TMT project was dismissive of concerns raised by environmental and Native Hawaiian groups, and I have serious concerns about the ethics involved in the planning process of this project.
Let us all hope there is middle ground, somewhere. It is my understanding the Governor "summoned" the young protestors/protectors to his office this past Saturday. The meeting allegedly happened with all parties involved (ie. TMT, State, & Kanaka maoli) from 6PM until past midnight. Protestors state, "not here, build it somewhere else". TMT states (Mr. Yang), "if not here, no where" (not verbatim, but damn close). Let us hope that common ground is found.
(*Note: Protestors/protectors will NOT stand down. There is no "middle ground" for these young people; led by some older ones who will make matters worse, in my opinion. As an example, going to Canada to profess "war crimes". Please. A'ole.)
Let the chips fall where they may, again. We all have done all we can to find middle ground.
Kane, still trying to decipher the intent of your posts here. E kala mai, however, still trying to take no offense (with no offense meant.)
JMO.
RE: We Support TMT - Please sign the petition - TomK - 05-18-2015
Agree about going to Canada for a war crimes trial, that's ridiculous and does not help the case for those against the TMT, and another example of moving the goal posts.
Pretty curious about how the Pats and NFL has any relevance to the TMT debate though. Can't wait for the explanation.