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+--- Thread: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs (/showthread.php?tid=23524)
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Patricia - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 09:27 PM)HiloJulie Wrote: As an outside observer (not a resident of HPP) but having read all of Patricia's postings here on PunaWeb as well as having numerous dialogs with Patricia, I cannot recall her ever answering anyone's question.
Ever.
Also, I can't help but think most of her spiel is in a Word Document that is just cut and pasted into whatever social media venue used. A good example is why must every mention of HPPOA have its former name appended to it?
I can't imagine anyone retyping this text over and over repeatedly as Patricia continually demonstrates.
I would think Patricia would get much more of a "buy in," right or wrong, from her targeted audience if she just once answered any question presented to her. It's like asking someone what time it is and instead of being told the time, you get a half a day sermon on how to make a watch, or as in this case, a half page of the cut and pasted rhetoric as well as a litany of personal attacks and insults against anyone who asks a question.
What a spin, HiloJulie. I DID answer the questions, have answered them numerous times. It sounds as though you are having difficulty understanding. Not too surprising. I DID SAY IT'S COMPLICATED. Which is why I did offer to re-explain. If you are confused, please be more clear and I will try to catch you up.
In addition, I do not "cut and paste." I know the history and info backwards and forwards, so not difficult to REPEAT and have the SAME INFO more than once. It is amazing how consistent and accurate one can be when they are telling the truth.
This posting is in regards to ALL SUBSTANDARD SUBDIVISIONS IN PUNA, HAWAII.
This forum is called PUNAWEB.
This information, regarding ALL SUBSTANDARD SUBDIVISIONS IN PUNA, HAWAII should be made available to current and potential property owners who have the RIGHT TO BE INFORMED.
Oh, and to set the record straight, I do not know HiloJulie, have never met her, would not recognize her if she was standing behind me in line ANYWHERE, and she and I have never engaged in "dialog." As I do not consider HiloJulie ranting at me, insulting me, engaging in character slamming and being out and out "intellectually" rude "dialogue."
IF there are actual INTERESTED current owners or prospective owners who would like to know more about substandard subdivisions in Puna, Hawaii, then feel free to ask me. I DO answer questions. However, I do type everything out (fingers to keys, one character at a time), and if I do not know the answer I will research it, so I may not get back with you immediately. But I will try my best.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 01-10-2025
I DID answer the questions,
You did not answer my questions, except in the way a politician answers a question.
A politician answers a question they wish they were asked, not the question they were actually asked. Which is not an acceptable answer to the question put forth.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Patricia - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 09:43 PM)MyManao Wrote: Interesting. I think of Pat and Hilo as the same person. Same personality same world view. Funny watching them duke it out.. cat fights with itself.
I would say that is insulting. Except, unlike all of you, in this small vocal group of yours, who all "know" one another, NONE of you know me. Instead, some of you have decided to ignore or worse, discount any info I post, either because you do not like it, it makes you uncomfortable, it is inconvenient, or because of a combination of all of those.
Do you have any good, informative info that others SHOULD KNOW, regarding road fees and substandard subdivisions in Puna, Hawaii?
Thanks
(01-10-2025, 07:58 PM)HereOnThePrimalEdge Wrote: Road maintenance fees are for road maintenance and road maintenance related costs
Are you saying:
1) Road maintenance fees are intended to be 100% for road maintenance
or
2) Road maintenance fees for 2024 or 2025 currently are used and will be used 100% for road maintenance
?
Road maintenance fees, from the very first year that HPPOA (PHH) began collecting them (decades ago) were/are supposed to ALWAYS be allocated, 100% for road maintenance.
So:
1. YES
2. NO
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - HiloJulie - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 09:43 PM)MyManao Wrote: Interesting. I think of Pat and Hilo as the same person. Same personality same world view. Funny watching them duke it out.. cat fights with itself.
"cat fights with itself."
Interesting comment coming from someone who uses a half dozen different screen names.
At any event, no I am not Patricia, or a ChatGPT bot or any of the other people/AI bots you have tried to make me out to be - just Julie.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Patricia - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 10:42 PM)HiloJulie Wrote:(01-10-2025, 09:43 PM)MyManao Wrote: Interesting. I think of Pat and Hilo as the same person. Same personality same world view. Funny watching them duke it out.. cat fights with itself.
"cat fights with itself."
Interesting comment coming from someone who uses a half dozen different screen names.
At any event, no I am not Patricia, or a ChatGPT bot or any of the other people/AI bots you have tried to make me out to be - just Julie.
Enough, already.
This post is not about YOU OR ME.
This post is about SUBSTANDARD SUBDIVISIONS IN PUNA, HAWAII, road easements, road fees, and the difference between voluntary community associations, HOAs and Planned Communities.
If you do not have any relevant info to share, regarding the above, please give it a rest.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - HiloJulie - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 10:53 PM)Patricia Wrote: Enough, already.
This post is not about YOU OR ME.
This post is about SUBSTANDARD SUBDIVISIONS IN PUNA, HAWAII, road easements, road fees, and the difference between voluntary community associations, HOAs and Planned Communities.
If you do not have any relevant info to share, regarding the above, please give it a rest.
Fair enough. At any event, someone the likes MyManao, who like misplacing a used Kleenex, is just not worth getting your feathers all ruffled.
So, here is my question. And, in as much as I am not trying to be insulting, or do I feel put off, nor am I intending to put you off, or in any way you can possibly define anything that could be considered an insult or insulting other than answering my question below, and I would appreciate a direct answer, preferably without a rehash of everything you have posted since you started posting here on PunaWeb since I already know it, knew it and understand it, so without further ado my question:
- Other than everything you have posted as you state as “information” about HPP, HPPOA et al, Roads, Road Fees, etc. etc., but what is your end goal? As I first asked you several pages ago, but what would it take for you as well as every HPP resident truly happy with all of this?
I again, thank you in advance.
Julie
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Patricia - 01-10-2025
(01-10-2025, 11:17 PM)HiloJulie Wrote:(01-10-2025, 10:53 PM)Patricia Wrote: Enough, already.
This post is not about YOU OR ME.
This post is about SUBSTANDARD SUBDIVISIONS IN PUNA, HAWAII, road easements, road fees, and the difference between voluntary community associations, HOAs and Planned Communities.
If you do not have any relevant info to share, regarding the above, please give it a rest.
Fair enough. At any event, someone the likes MyManao, who like misplacing a used Kleenex, is just not worth getting your feathers all ruffled.
So, here is my question. And, in as much as I am not trying to be insulting, or do I feel put off, nor am I intending to put you off, or in any way you can possibly define anything that could be considered an insult or insulting other than answering my question below, and I would appreciate a direct answer, preferably without a rehash of everything you have posted since you started posting here on PunaWeb since I already know it, knew it and understand it, so without further ado my question:
- Other than everything you have posted as you state as “information” about HPP, HPPOA et al, Roads, Road Fees, etc. etc., but what is your end goal? As I first asked you several pages ago, but what would it take for you as well as every HPP resident truly happy with all of this?
I again, thank you in advance.
Julie
Julie, in answer:
The voluntary club should use Restricted Road Maintenance Fees, which they collect from OWNERS for Roads- period.
The voluntary club should collect MEMBERSHIP dues from WILLING MEMBERS to pay for non-road, association activities. (This is totally separate from Owners and Roads.)
Any "compensation" the voluntary club feels it is due should be fairly assessed. Renting out the clubhouse, for road related meetings does not cost the voluntary club in excess of $170,000/year. (Which is what they have been skimming from road fees).
Any governmental activities (such as, establishing mail service) that are not road related or club related should involve owners and their governmental representatives (county, state). HPPOA should not be acting on any owner's behalf, without their consent. HPPOA is not a quasi-governmental agency.
The above would make a lot of owners happy.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - HiloJulie - 01-11-2025
(01-10-2025, 11:35 PM)Patricia Wrote: Julie, in answer:
First, I would like to say Thank You for answering my question.
I understand what you have said, but have some additional questions to ask. Perhaps maybe you could answer them as you have my original question.
(01-10-2025, 11:35 PM)Patricia Wrote: The voluntary club should use Restricted Road Maintenance Fees, which they collect from OWNERS for Roads- period.
The voluntary club should collect MEMBERSHIP dues from WILLING MEMBERS to pay for non-road, association activities. (This is totally separate from Owners and Roads.)
Any "compensation" the voluntary club feels it is due should be fairly assessed. Renting out the clubhouse, for road related meetings does not cost the voluntary club in excess of $170,000/year. (Which is what they have been skimming from road fees).
Who then pays for the Board of Directors? Costs associated with meetings?
Where in any of the HPPOA financial statements does it state that the road related meetings are costing $170,000.00 a year? Further, isn’t there numerous – for an easier term for all to understand – other “shared expenses” between the road maintenance and voluntary club operations? Such as mailings, which under various circumstances is required. At .73 cents per letter, one mailing a year to all lot owners would cost $5,840.00. Don’t elections require ballots to be mailed? And what about the numerous "recall elections" HPP has endured over the years? More ballot mailings. Isn’t there also a requirement to have one annual mailing of whatever? Isn’t there also shared office expenses? And also, when a lawsuit is filed against HPPOA and its officers and directors, where is the money supposed to come from in order to defend and untimely settle or dispose of these lawsuits?
(01-10-2025, 11:35 PM)Patricia Wrote: Any governmental activities (such as, establishing mail service) that are not road related or club related should involve owners and their governmental representatives (county, state). HPPOA should not be acting on any owner's behalf, without their consent. HPPOA is not a quasi-governmental agency.
I don’t really see HPPOA with dirty hands here, but I can agree, that for the USPS, this is a half measure at fixing their original screw up with respect to HPP mail delivery. The arrangement, as I understand it, was the USPS donated the mailboxes and HPPOA sought out and collected voluntary funds from people who desired to have mailboxes convenient to them.
So, if anything, I see HPPOA seizing an opportunity offered by the USPS that does nothing but good for the residents of HPP, nor can I see that any road monies have been or are being spent on this sole issue.
(01-10-2025, 11:35 PM)Patricia Wrote: The above would make a lot of owners happy.
I'm sure your answers would make some happy. I just don’t think it's as big as a number as you seem to think it is.
Again, thank you for your answers and I look forward to you possibly answering my follow-up questions.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - Patricia - 01-11-2025
(01-11-2025, 12:19 AM)HiloJulie Wrote:(01-10-2025, 11:35 PM)Patricia Wrote: Julie, in answer:
First, I would like to say Thank You for answering my question.
I understand what you have said, but have some additional questions to ask. Perhaps maybe you could answer them as you have my original question.
(01-10-2025, 11:35 PM)Patricia Wrote: The voluntary club should use Restricted Road Maintenance Fees, which they collect from OWNERS for Roads- period.
The voluntary club should collect MEMBERSHIP dues from WILLING MEMBERS to pay for non-road, association activities. (This is totally separate from Owners and Roads.)
Any "compensation" the voluntary club feels it is due should be fairly assessed. Renting out the clubhouse, for road related meetings does not cost the voluntary club in excess of $170,000/year. (Which is what they have been skimming from road fees).
Who then pays for the Board of Directors? Costs associated with meetings?
Where in any of the HPPOA financial statements does it state that the road related meetings are costing $170,000.00 a year? Further, isn’t there numerous – for an easier term for all to understand – other “shared expenses” between the road maintenance and voluntary club operations? Such as mailings, which under various circumstances is required. At .73 cents per letter, one mailing a year to all lot owners would cost $5,840.00. Don’t elections require ballots to be mailed? And what about the numerous "recall elections" HPP has endured over the years? More ballot mailings. Isn’t there also a requirement to have one annual mailing of whatever? Isn’t there also shared office expenses? And also, when a lawsuit is filed against HPPOA and its officers and directors, where is the money supposed to come from in order to defend and untimely settle or dispose of these lawsuits?
(01-10-2025, 11:35 PM)Patricia Wrote: Any governmental activities (such as, establishing mail service) that are not road related or club related should involve owners and their governmental representatives (county, state). HPPOA should not be acting on any owner's behalf, without their consent. HPPOA is not a quasi-governmental agency.
I don’t really see HPPOA with dirty hands here, but I can agree, that for the USPS, this is a half measure at fixing their original screw up with respect to HPP mail delivery. The arrangement, as I understand it, was the USPS donated the mailboxes and HPPOA sought out and collected voluntary funds from people who desired to have mailboxes convenient to them.
So, if anything, I see HPPOA seizing an opportunity offered by the USPS that does nothing but good for the residents of HPP, nor can I see that any road monies have been or are being spent on this sole issue.
(01-10-2025, 11:35 PM)Patricia Wrote: The above would make a lot of owners happy.
I'm sure your answers would make some happy. I just don’t think it's as big as a number as you seem to think it is.
Again, thank you for your answers and I look forward to you possibly answering my follow-up questions.
Hello, Julie.
A LOT of road money has been diverted and spent on the mailboxes- among other things.
But again this is complicated (the courts and HPPOA made it so). And as an "outsider" I would imagine it is even more difficult to understand. Still, I will try to break it down using HPPOA's own budget outline from 2024/2025:
The following is EVERYTHING PAID FOR WITH ROAD FEE MONEY:
1) Road Maintenance (materials, hauling, contract work, dust mitigation, signage, road striping/marking, speed hump maintenance)
2) Road Improvements Through Bond (debt service, professional fees, and expenses)
3) Shoulder Maintenance
4) Equipment and Vehicles (maintenance and repairs, equipment rental, equipment hauling, fuel, hydronic oil and grease, vehicle registration/inspection, equipment insurance)
5) Shop (tools and small equipment, shop supplies, shop furniture and equipment, shop utilities)
5) Office (newsletter, outsourced printing ALL postage, rental storage unit for HPPOA's records, rental of postage machine, furniture and small equipment, office supplies, contract services, bank charges and fees, annual fees and registration, collection expenses, liens, directors and officers liability insurance, board expenses, crime insurance, meeting expenses merchant service fees, office utilities- telephone and fax, electric)
6) Property (general liability insurance, umbrella policy, property insurance, office repairs,shop repairs, ANNUAL GENERAL FUND COMPENSATION)
7) Professional Fees (audit and accounting, recording secretary, ALL legal, document server, elections, technical, website)
8) Personnel (salaries and wages, payroll taxes and unemployment, employee benefits, temporary disability insurance, workers comp insurance, temporary hires, training, employee relations, payroll service, employee retention/hiring, employee drug screening)
The following are non-road expenses, which are supposed to be paid for with non-road money:
1) Activity Center- what I call "clubhouse" (AC electricity, AC water, AC propane, AC Janitorial, AC supplies, AC maintenance and repairs, AC grounds, AC fixtures, furniture and equipment, AC events and festivals, AC property tax, property insurance non-roads, professional fees non-roads)
----------
The Annual General Fund Payment is the $170,000 plus that HPPOA skims from road maintenance fees for "compensation."
As you can see, everything except for the clubhouse is budgeted and paid for with road fee money. Aside from using the HPPOA clubhouse, there is no "compensation" that HPPOA is owed.
A fair compensation for using the clubhouse would be as follows:
12 Board Meetings per year at approx. 3 hours/meeting and $30/hr. (the rental rate) is:
$1,080
3 General Meetings per year at approx. 3 hours/meeting and $30/hr. (the rental rate is:
$270
Approx 72 Committee Meetings per year at approx. 2 hours/meeting each and $15/hour (the rental rate) is:
$2,160
The TOTAL in clubhouse rental fees for a year is:
$3,510
However, given the 2024/2025 Budget:
Non-road income for that year was determined to be:
$60,925
Non-road expenses for that year were determined to be:
$51,000
Without "compensating" themselves $170,000 plus, HPPOA's non-road "nest egg" would have been:
$9,925 PLUS the $3,510 clubhouse rental for a total of:
$13,435
As you can see, HPPOA trying to save a "nest egg," in excess of $700,000 in non-road fees, would have taken HPPOA quite a long time if they'd conducted business as they should. But without suing them, who is going to make them? HPPOA will take what they want. Use it where they want. And justify it however way they want.
Apologize for the length. But I warned you that it is complex and messy.
Instead of saving, approx. $13,000 in non-road money each year, for the past 5 years (which is what HPPOA is actually left with and would have totaled maybe $65,000). HPPOA has been skimming 5% of the road fees each year, calling it "compensation," and making themselves a nice "nest egg" (approx. $700,000).
A corporation skimming approx. $635,000 from a restricted fund is not something that should be ignored or excused- no matter what HPPOA's "good intentions" may be.
RE: Roads Are Easements Not Planned Communities Or HOAs - HiloJulie - 01-11-2025
Thank you for your reply Patricia.
My response is as follows: (which are my observations and opinions of those observations and is in no way intended to be an insult, or insulting in any way, shape or form)
I have found both the 2023-24 audited financial statement as well as the 2024-25 budget as you have stated above from the HPP website.
As I understand it, in accordance with the bylaws as amended, allows for THE BOARD to set the amount of compensation, not to exceed 5% of the road maintenance funds collected per year for "non road maintenance" expenses. As I can see in the audited financial statement, this amount for 2023-24 was $166,187.00. As you stated and as I can see in the 2024-25 budget, the amount has been BUDGETED to be $170,000.00.
Nowhere do I see in the charter, or the information you have provided, any stipulation of what this compensation can be spent on other than "non-road maintenance."
When considering that HPP is more or less a "business" that is doing 4 to 4.5 million a year in revenue and with a net worth a little north of 10 million, I'd say that 170k a year is chicken feed. I personally think your expectation of what "non-road expenses" are, or should be, differs quite vastly from what is reality as well to how, in accordance with GAAP as well as FASB standards require direct road and non-road expenses be reported.
Further, the audited financial statement is, in most cases, not a rubber stamp document, and in as much as it does contain some rather concerning comments about basic expenditure approvals, as well as policy and procedures and a rather embarrassing rebuke about the proper way to "void checks," and then the whole GET tax issue - which to me does raise an interesting question as to if the 5% of the road fee assessment portion is subject to GET Tax since it technically is a "non-maintenance" item but, in the end the auditor has signed off on HPPOA's financial statements with the standard "in all material aspects" to be accurate and correct.
"Skimming," "nest eggs" and other terminology such as that, if being employed by HPPOA, its Board and/or its Officers, would never get past any reliable auditing firm.
I will state that for the financial size HPP is and after reading the audited financial statements and seeing the 2024-25 budget spreadsheet, I am appalled at the archaic methods of accounting and financial reporting being used. While it is in compliance with GAAP and FASB, it's just by a hair. And when you consider in today's age, the cost of a decent, detailed and comprehensive accounting system is again, chicken feed to what HPPOA's size is coupled with hobbled together Excel spreadsheets no doubt "borrowed" from someone's former employer to me are quite ridiculous coupled with the GET Tax matter as discussed above. Any modern up to date accounting system would automatically determine what is and is not subject to the billing for and collection of and payment of Hawaii's GET tax.
However, that all being said, I don't see there being anything out of line with what HPPOA has or is doing, including the entire mailbox park matter. Which also touches base with the whole 414-D and 421-J, which has had three reputable law firms advise that HPPOA falls under both in various ways, as well as being mentioned and confirmed within the audited financial statement notes.
Now, to me, I would think a better focus on HPP, considering that the road fees are mandatory, and represents the other 95% of what you pay, but what is the measurement of "bang for your buck" there?
Are the assets being properly used? Normal wear and tear versus abusive damage? Check the oil AFTER the engine blows up? Are you paying for a mile of paved road but only getting 3/4 of a mile actually paved?
Where is the grain of sand detail concern for the actual accounting of and performance of the other 95% of the money you are paying?
As my grandfather and my father who both managed hundreds of millions of dollars of contract work (very successfully I might add) erecting boilers for power plants all over the country would always say "when you're bending over picking up those pennies, hundred-dollar bills are flying right over your head!"
At any event, I'm sure my words will upset a few.