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+--- Thread: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor (/showthread.php?tid=2683)
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - hikatz - 09-22-2008
quote:Fifty years ago, we did not have the amount of merchandise, stuff, that is being generated and bought now. Most of it, is junk, but the demand is there, so they keep churning it out, the stores will keep bringing it in, as long as they make a profit. Again, can you see families with trash cans in their car, stopping to empty their garbage at the landfill, before their trip to town, it's not going to happen.They have become dependent on the plastic bags. I have friends, who think they are doing their bit, by using the recycle bags, to go grocery shopping, but everything else, they throw in the trash, papers, catalogs, food cans, yogurt containers, ect. If you say anything, it's pretty much, mind your own business we have always done things this way! How many others are like them, it is hard to change people's habits.
Originally posted by Rob Tucker
Geez Bob, I am quite amazed at the passions of people over cheap, crappy plastic bags. You'd think they were invented by Moses during Biblical times and the world and souls would be lost without them.
Seems to me that they simply do more harm then good. That the world is awash in cheap crappy disposable junk and that somewhere, somehow we need to start cutting back on the simple wastefulness of it all. I can remember life before the lousy little bags came on the scene. When they hit the stores we missed the paper bags.
Things that generally make a one way trip to the landfill are a good place to start and don't bore me with the fact that one or more of you actually recycle one once in a while. Talk about feel good BS propaganda - saying you recycle one every now and then is as rationalizing a statement as I've ever heard.
I try to avoid plastic bags. Bagging trash to haul to the dump is one of the dumbest things I see going on. Nothing quite like preserving your garbage for future generations. I know for a fact that trash cans with lids work just as well now as they did fifty years ago - before Madison Avenue trained us to buy things to throw away.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Guest - 09-22-2008
Use wooden or plastic crates that stack and get ya one of those collapsible two wheeled dollies.
Bring an ice chest for your meat and diary. That can go on top.
Raise your own chickens and ducks. Duck are better as they are better foragers. Khaki Campbells lay up to 300 eggs per year. Eat all the Drakes. Get a muskovy hen to sit the eggs as they are better brooders
When you buy something that is wrapped in plastic, throw the wrapper away at the store. Only bring home paper and cardboard that will go in your compost heap.
Save all cans and reuse them as planters for starting plants. As they rust out have a separate compost pile for them to oxidize and leech their iron into the pile.
Buy only 100% cotton clothes and make quilts from the remnants and compost the cotton after use.
Never buy new glasses, you can reuse glass jars for drinking.
Never throw away string, foil, rubber bands or anything that you can reuse.
You can save cans and cut them up for many things like shingles for you chicken coop.
There is no end ways to reuse and recycle by yourself, but with the exception of aluminum and lead batteries recycling on a mass scale creates more environmental pollution than it is worth.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Bob Orts - 09-22-2008
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Tucker
Geez Bob, I am quite amazed at the passions of people over cheap, crappy plastic bags. You'd think they were invented by Moses during Biblical times and the world and souls would be lost without them.
Rob, the bill is just bad legislation. The intent is good, but bad legislation is still bad legislation.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Rob Tucker - 09-22-2008
I still haven't discerned what is bad about the legislation except people seem to love their trashy bags. If you think that environmental issues, which lead to such legislation, have no standing in law then that would be an interesting point. May as well toss out the Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, EPA, FDA, and not stop there. While we're at it why not deregulate banking and insurance too? Oh yeah, They already did that. No sense in requiring people to pass a drivers test either. Since everyone is equally entitled to be stupid we may as well just dissolve government and buy a gun with our tax rebates.
The council ban on disposable plastic bags was rational and intended to improve the environment for everyone. It is in effect in other locations and I believe that more such bans, just like those on DDT, Kepone and Mirex, are awaiting us in the future. You can all wish your precious trash was protected by the Bill of Rights but I don't think it is. Article 111 - The citizens right to acquire and possess trash shall not be infringed.
Of all the stupid issues to get fired up about this one takes the cake.
On the topic of GMO some make the case that as the population of the planet is expected to double we need to be able to feed people. Doesn't it occur to anyone that as the population of earth doubles and triples there a whole lot of things that are going to change? You might not quite appreciate loosing cheap crappy plastic bags now but I think what really fires up people is the simple sense that this is just the beginning. Because actually it is.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Kapohocat - 09-22-2008
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Tucker...
Of all the stupid issues to get fired up about this one takes the cake.
Hey Rob - no trash talking! [
]
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - JWFITZ - 09-22-2008
Not to worry,
The economy is going to have a larger impact on the number of bags coming out of checkstands than any legislation ever could. . .
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Rob Tucker - 09-22-2008
I think you're implication is incorrect Jay. I have yet to see poverty or economic hardship reduce the amount of trash on the land or ocean. Usually it is quite the opposite. Trash goes into the bushes or right into the stream.
Look around in the bushes here in Puna and you can easily find the trash from recent hard times.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - JWFITZ - 09-22-2008
Could well be, simply trying interject some grim humor.
You are dead on about the fact that change is coming.
I think the change will be remarkably cruel for many.
You mentioned GMOs. I must admit, it is a very hard call at some points whether its kinder to lend aid or withdraw it.
I expect the cat is out of the bag and what we gets is what we gets.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Bob Orts - 09-22-2008
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Tucker
I still haven't discerned what is bad about the legislation except people seem to love their trashy bags. If you think that environmental issues, which lead to such legislation, have no standing in law then that would be an interesting point.
The council ban on disposable plastic bags was rational and intended to improve the environment for everyone.
Of all the stupid issues to get fired up about this one takes the cake.
Rob, understand, I'm not looking at the "plastic bags" I'm looking at the legislation itself. Everyone seems to look at legislation as if it's unlocking a door that was closed to them, or closing a door to keep out something that was bad for them. I'm looking at all the doors that are being opened and closed on the other side of the room that nobody is looking at that can be as bad, if not worse.
The Bill had three reasons:
1. Environmental issues related to wildlife and marine animals and its harm. But, is plastic bags the only or for that matter the most common and prevalent solid waste pollution causing harm? What about all the other items fouling the water? If it's so much a concern, deal with the problem, all of it. Why are we dealing with plastic bags when more marine animals have been killed by thin flexible films, not plastic bags? I don't hear anyone so much as saying a peep over banning those items. If Hawaii is serious, get serious and address the real problem, not some fantasy to make people feel good about themselves.
2. Visible litter is another of the items mentioned. I believe that is the true issue. Plastic bags are visible solid waste pollution that's easily identifiable so that's why it's targeted. Bet if all plastic containers were mandated to be bright red, the whole island will look like a light bulb display at a brothel convention. And, that would be what everyone is complaining about. Because plastic containers are not as identifiable as plastic bags, they are not targeted. What about paper, cigarette butts, broken glass, construction debris? All those are much bigger pollutants than plastic bags, but they are not as visible to most so they are ignored. If every plastic bag on Hawaii suddenly turned clear, people wouldn't think it's a problem anymore.
3. They claim another reason is the use of petroleum, which is in short supply. Gimme a break! There are thousands of items that require petroleum, many pure 100% unadulterated luxury items. Where is the ban on those items? For that matter where is any talk on banning those items? Geez, does anyone on Hawaii even know what the heck those items are? How much petroleum is used to manufacture those throwaway plastic lei's? Why not ban them from being given away free?
Let's take it to the next level. No take out food can be packaged in any man-made container. It must be paper with no old growth fiber, is 100% recyclable and contains a minimum of 40% post consumer waste (just like required for paper bags). That means no more styrofoam, or plastic containers. It's metal, glass, or paper. Of course you can BYOC. How will this sit with the people? Oh, yea, it's illegal to provide any non-biodegradable plastic utensil (that goes for straws as well).
This legislation stepped over the bounds of acceptable controls. They took one item, ignored the thousands of others, and tailored the bill to address that single item while ignoring all the other equal or worse pollutants. In essence it was to appease, not produce real results. And, because of the skimpy rationale, it opens everyone up, every business, person, household, everyone to similar flimsy legislation. If people see it only for the words "plastic bag ban", they are getting the government they deserve and need to shut up about government interference.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - JWFITZ - 09-22-2008
Bob, Bingo. Nice post.