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+--- Thread: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale (/showthread.php?tid=4440)
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - Kahunascott - 09-01-2008
quote:Yes I am on the island and I handle contracts and cert of insur every day.
Originally posted by KathyH
Scott, I forget where different posters are, are you on island?
As I said, both licensed electricians I had bid my job would not start without a 30% down and the signed contract.
My draftsperson required a deposit upon acceptance of his bid. I had to pre-pay the architect for the stamp up front.
That's three out of three that expected a deposit upon commencement.
A signed contract means you can sue someone for breach of contract if they don't act in good faith, but most people would rather not sue.
Everything is negotiable and I will agree that some contractors will not start without a deposit.
If you feel comfortable and they are reliable then by all means follow your feelings.
But in the world of contracting it shouldn’t be the norm.
I bet I could get any of your contractors to lower the deposit to say 10% though. I’m against paying for nothing. Try and get a deposit from a State, County or Federal contract, good luck.
I wish you only the best in the future for you and if I can help further email me and I will be more then happy to help. I hate to see these scam artists get away with anything.
"Many dreams come true and some have silver linings, I look for my dreams and a pocket full of gold" Led Zeppelin
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - missydog1 - 09-01-2008
Thanks Scott!
Actually it doesn't bother me at all to pay 30%. I would rather get it out of the way than defer it as it can be more painful farther down the line of a project.
I am still not convinced this guy is a scam artist. I have dealt with enough scam artists before and their hustle is a bit different. I think this is a guy with a high opinion of what he does, a poor opinion of too many others, a very judgmental person with prejudices and a way way short fuse and anger issues.
See, a scam artist would be off feeling good about what he pulled over me (and maybe a little bummed I didn't totally give it up). But I'm almost certain this guy is out there sincerely fuming and feeling mistreated and inadequately paid. And thus justified for all his behavior and maybe even for retaliatory behavior.
Make no mistake that I'm mad at him for the mess he left and I thought he was a complete jerk and inexcusable ... had he been a con man he would do well to keep a smoother tongue ... I can't imagine heaping insults on clients pays off.
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - oink - 09-02-2008
Is the option there locally to run your non licensed handyman type people through a day labor company for the insurance protection? It ups the cost a fair bit but has certain advantages for both sides.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - JWFITZ - 09-02-2008
The tradition solution, which is as good as any, is to simply pay by the hour, with no commitments on either party, depending on the work, with the tacit assertion that the job will stop if it goes slow or wrong.
1) If the job goes too slow, say, "this isn't working out," pay them off for the few hours they've been there, and find someone else.
2) If the work is sloppy, or the personalities weird, same result.
3) From the "handymans" perspective, it's good too, because if the homeowner "changes" the scope of your project, or you find hidden disasters within the job, there's no being trapped by a bid and the resultant confusion.
Can't we understand that there are projects small enough in scale that to get involved in contracts, background checks, correspondence with NATO, and whatever else, that ultimately in reality provide no real protection--that it's a little preposterous? Basically, I suggest that unless the scope of the project and the budget is large enough to involve a potential lawsuit, either against your worker or your(or their) insurance, you're fat out of luck. You can go to small claims court, but collecting is another issue. If you're a paranoid sort in denial about the protection it gives you, and it makes you feel better--hey, go for it. But the truth of the matter is another issue.
As the handyman kind of stuff I do, there's a fair bit of the "My window is sticking, can you fix it?" type of work. Those sorts of projects aren't even worth the gas to drive over to do, but I do them, basically as much as a public service as anything else, as well as a means of meeting people and building relationships of trust. Frankly, if someone wanted me to sign a contract for some trivial job of a day or two's work, I'd assume I was the one getting scammed, that they know there's some lurking problem like massive termite damage and they want me on the hook for it. That sort of thing does happen. . .and it starts off as an adversarial relationship.
I think it's again important to assert that all the paper in the world isn't worth anything compared to reputation and integrity. If we're really honest about that, those pieces of paper are pretty scarce protection. Especially in this world, with expensive materials and expensive legal help, and insurance companies that make their money by not paying claims--you're pretty much on your own.
LASTLY: One of the things people really don't consider until the hired help is there is this: With this kind of work you're going to have people you don't know on your property and in your home. The contracts, licenses, and insurance are of no use if the job, is more or less a lead to other, well, projects, or if someone wants to pad their wages by pocketing a couple of tools from the job site or worse. If I was a single woman on my own, or an elderly couple(which would be hard to be, but you get my point) or whatever, especially in this climate of resentment and poverty, I'd be freaked--you don't want to invite just anybody over to your place to walk through your house and case it out. Really, bad stuff happens. A whole lot of people out there believe they're "entitled" to a little payback from the "rich haoles."
Again, hire people you know and trust, who have sensible values--this is just as important as the quality of work they do. Hire people you think will be a friend to you once the job is done. This is again a core aspect of building community, and an important and fading one.
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - missydog1 - 09-02-2008
Jay, I agree with your post 100%. LOL, I suppose I agree with it because that is how I think too.
A breach of contract lawsuit can be a real pain in the okole. All lawsuits can.
You said:
>>>Frankly, if someone wanted me to sign a contract for some trivial job of a day or two's work, I'd assume I was the one getting scammed, that they know there's some lurking problem like massive termite damage and they want me on the hook for it. That sort of thing does happen. . .and it starts off as an adversarial relationship.
Yes, and even though I'm kicking myself in retrospect for not getting the scope of the job in writing, this is the reason I didn't. It starts the relationship off with a declaration that "I don't trust you to come up here for three days and do what you're promising to do, so I need you to sign paper and nail it down."
Then the person gets freaked especially if not the most literate person, because for all he knows I am inserting little clauses that are going to entitle me to run him around.
I always try to engage people I know or that people close to me have worked with. That's my number one.
In this case I extended my trust to someone that a nice member of Punaweb has worked with more than once, and he didn't rip off the property or flake. If the person were consistent, it would have worked out. But he seems very Jekyll and Hyde.
I prefer to work with someone who actually posts on Punaweb and has a track record of his philosophy, such as yourself, and I'm sorry that I didn't call you, in hindsight. The reason I didn't is that you clearly do projects that are very artistic, which is usually a plus, but this was more about getting down and dirty getting rid of invasive ferns and tulip tree seedlings. Not rocket science and not even a design project.
I do take your words to heart about people who come to scout the property for theft. Lucky for me I don't live alone and my property has a nice attribute that a thief can't see if anyone is home until he dares to come up the driveway ... and normally someone is home and will be all over it. And we have a back neighbor, and we have a big farm next to us where our other neighbor works and can see what's up, and he's our friend. So we have a good deal of surveillance ... still, I don't just call people out of the newspaper.
Well, live and learn! I sure wish I hadn't let him cut up the materials I bought though. I let him so he could save the gas for one trip from Pahoa to north of Hilo ... but again, when in the midst of an amicable job, for me to take the position I didn't trust him to take the materials off property, which would have cost him $$ in gas and two hours drive time, would have made things appear adversarial rather than mutually beneficial. He DID bring the materials back, too. It's just that he cut the rebar too short for it to be useful.
Back to Jay -- thank goodness there is someone willing to do small kine stuff like fix a window ... those services are much needed! I KNOW you are not getting rich on jobs like that, but I hope rich in good karma. [
]RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - hikatz - 09-02-2008
I am repeating what I wrote under the tree cutting topic. Over 5 years ago we had trees removed by two different licensed tree cutters. (expensive) They also estimated on a project removing large ironwoods, plus other trees bordering the ponds, very difficult because of the narrow walkways, equipment could not be brought in, cost was thousands! Troy's estimate, fraction of the price. Trees were cut, removed and the area cleaned up, he did a fantastic job! He has done a couple more big jobs for us since then, one job we said 5 trees, then, well maybe that one over there, also how about those two, ended up cutting 10. How many of us start a project, then change our mind. How frustrating it can be for the person doing the job. Kalanianaole, Hilo, where the new condo is going in, Troy originally hand cleared that lot, owners putting it up for sale wanted people to see the potential of the property! Confrontations here, as described by the three punawebbers is troubling and disturbing. What happened to Kathy should not have happened. I had an incident with Troy recently which was also very upsetting.I've played it over and over in my mind and came to a decision that I had to put it behind me as he has never faulted on the work he has done for us. Punaweb members are just a small (valuable) segment of the Puna population, but there are many jobs and many people Troy has helped in the Puna area, which is why he is still in business. Also, the reason he does not work afternoons,is because of his animals and birds. And Yes, we would and will hire him again!
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - John S. Rabi - 09-02-2008
quote:Licensed tree cutters?! Who do they get licensed by hikatz?
Originally posted by hikatz
Over 5 years ago we had trees removed by two different licensed tree cutters. (expensive)
Aloha,
John S. Rabi, GM,ARB,BFT,CM,CBR,FHS,PB,RB
808.989.1314
http://www.JohnRabi.com
Typically Tropical Properties
"The Next Level of Service!"
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - Guest - 09-02-2008
She could just mean a "Business License"
I'm a licensed blogger... I'm giving myself time for the paperwork to arrive from the Feds for official certification. [:o)]
So trust me folks... anyone wanting blog help... If anything goes wrong with it... You can blame the Feds Once that license get's here. [
]Until then... I'll just pirate and hope the Feds don't crack down on me for being unlicensed.[
]-------
Glob
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - missydog1 - 09-02-2008
Damon, is it possible for you to make a post without advertising your blog?
Seriously, as that last post shows, the connection to the topic at hand was about as tenuous as it can get. [8D]
hikatz, I respect your experience, and that is one reason I'm trying to make the point that Troy isn't a local scam artist, IMHO. He has excellent history and terrible history (cubanishi, me, John Rabi) going back 3 years. Inconsistent, wildly.
This is why I told a DETAILED story so that people can draw conclusions either way, rather than posting a blanket -- stay away from him.
RE: Burned by land clearing guy, a cautionary tale - hikatz - 09-02-2008
Thanks Damon, (by the way I like your glob[
]) I think that was what I was trying to say, it was so long ago Jacunski's was one, I believe they changed ownership since then, the other, I would have to go back and research. Kathy, I know you have said he is not a scam artist, and I agree, you also said he was o.k. cutting down trees, The only reason I posted in the first place, is there is so much negative about him and he is not here to defend himself. I AM NOT HERE TO CHANGE ANYONE'S OPINION! Kathy,again nobody should go through, what you went through it was wrong! It would be easier for me to along with the public opinion, but I can't do that. He did an excellent job not once, but three times, for us with the tree cutting, removal and cleanup.