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+--- Thread: TMT groundbreaking - live (/showthread.php?tid=14781)
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - ironyak - 04-16-2015
PM2 - Apparently you have some activist experience that is informing / influencing / overshawdowing your interpretation of these events. It sounds like you hope for or expect some high degree of consistency in rationale or motivation from a group, instead of the very messy reality of diverse people organizing towards a common cause. In my experience, this challenge of cohesion is common for human endeavors, whether they are activist, academic, or professional, so I don't find it surprising or disconcerting. Of course, it would be of interest to hear your story at some point.
rainyjim - Again, in the interest of evidence based reasoning, can you provide examples or explain the logic for your belief that this is an entitlement based culture looking for a pay-off? I just don't see it.
Instead, the explanation offered by dakine and opihikao regarding long-standing and unaddressed issues explains for me both the scope and intensity of the events, and the ancillary role of the TMT in them. Given everything I've heard, and how widely the message has resonated, it appears to be people genuinely taking a stand for what they believe in. Given our history, both separate and shared, it's difficult to not see this in a positive light IMHO.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident" (or "sacred" if you prefer Jefferson's original words
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/declara/ruffdrft.html
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - knieft - 04-16-2015
Opihikao,
I agree that the issue is divisive to some extreme. Both sides argue past each other and the end result is deepened entrenchment on each side, not simply on Punaweb but in daily life interactions. This is not so disheartening to me as I find "haoles go home" and "you worship dirt" both to be legitimate points of view.
I must preface my remarks with the admission that I am a complete spiritual flunky. I have no idea what spiritual means and many have attempted to explain it to me over the years, to no avail...
So when you mention mana, to me it is a _belief_ in mana, not some "given" truth. Embedding the supernatural with great power is problematic to me since it ends up being used as something of a trump card that grinds discussion to a halt. Even the chanting appears to be a similar trump card, as if there is some Truth in the chant that is beyond any human argument.
On one hand, it is often mentioned that the protest is about something more than the TMT (sovereignty?) and then when the question about what blocking the TMT has to do with the larger issue, the mana card is slapped down as a perfectly legitimate reason that blocking the TMT makes sense. The logic just doesn't hang together.
Though I personally believe that the observatories _add_ to the grandeur of Mauna Kea that belief is irrelevant to someone who sees them as an eyesore or a blasphemous affront to Hawaiian heritage/culture/religion. Is it possible to see that the reverse may be true as well? That someone's belief that the telescopes are "bad" is irrelevant to those that believe otherwise? Perhaps irrelevant is the wrong word, but I mean to say beliefs are not Truths, that humans come up with ideas or attach themselves to beliefs that resonate with them--and that the beliefs may have nothing to do with the reality "out there". Beliefs, and emotions, are biochemical patterns inside our brains, perhaps representing reality in small part, but probably not. This is true of linear thought as well, of course.
(Science tries to overcome this, in fits and starts, and as the biochemical representations get more useful in actually describing reality, reality slyly drifts further away--what a grand and human tale, albeit off topic...)
So saying to the "TMT is great" side that mana means the TMT should go somewhere else has nothing to do with that side's reality, and conversely, the "TMT is wrong" side can find no reality in the arguments for the TMT in that spot. They end up speaking past each other and emotions end up ruling both sides. Each side saying the other is blind to reality.
To those who think in a linear fashion the logic just isn't there. Wrongs have been done to Hawaiians and we want reparations so we will stop workers from building another telescope on Mauna Kea--it just doesn't follow. To those who think in a linear fashion you need a premise _and_ a solution. Not building the TMT does not solve the reparations gripe. To take it even further and say building the TMT means no one cares about Hawaiian culture or heritage similarly doesn't make sense to those who think in a linear fashion.
If the Hawaiians concerned about gaining reparations could agree on what that would look like--on what the _solution_ is--and then they could ask for that. If going through the legislative process with those demands fails then reiterate those demands and get a couple thousand people to sit down in the Keaau interchange and bring the east side of the island to a halt. You will have instant international attention, as well as the attention of nearly everyone living on the east side.
But, and this is the big but, if those demands aren't understandable to those who think in a linear fashion, then the sit down will be seen as selfish and immature as blocking TMT workers from building another telescope on Mauna Kea.
I have always been puzzled why Hawaiians have never protested OHA in a serious and systematic way. If I understand it correctly (unlikely!) OHA is tasked with making reparations reality. Instead, the protestors adopt police-state tactics blockading the TMT...huh? Perhaps in retrospect one day the protestors will look back and see that that was among the most ineffective ways to get...what? No solution is proposed.
I have never met a culture I liked. Pros and cons, sure, but in my most cynical moments I can see culture as a cancer on human nature, and yet find no historical culture without a religion, or without supernatural beliefs. So I suspect I am missing out on some very important part of being human. Yet I am happy to be the result of billions of years of natural selection using legos formed in star explosions even longer ago, even if the big bang happened by chance for no reason at all...
Cheers,
Kirt
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - rainyjim - 04-16-2015
Ironyak,
Not ignoring you.
It is a complex idea.
To start, as knifet pointed out "not building the TMT does not solve the reparations gripe" illustrates my sentiments exactly in the rational disconnect or fallacy of attempting to block the construction of a new telescope as if that will have some bearing on reparations.
Second, a Opihikao pointed out "as to the 1 million dollars a year...might buy them lunch in 2016" illustrates just one of many instances in which money is expected from this organization. Why does anyone feel entitled to a handout from the telescope in the first place? (assumption here: because it's on our land on our island?) I surely never felt entitled to random handouts from any new enterprises / businesses that happened to open shop in my neck of the woods, and the only place I have encountered this attitude is Hawai'i. Be it geothermal or TMT if there's money to be made people here are quick to try and put their hands in the pot - always under the guise of "for the keiki". If it were up to me I'd choose to teach the keiki how to take care of themselves not feed off of the success of others like a parasite.
The aspect of Hawai'i being an entitlement culture is no new idea, I'm not sure why this comes as a foreign idea to you. The whole state is subsidized federally by the other 49 states and that's just the tip of the entitlement iceberg.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - snorkle - 04-16-2015
obie points out; "The organization has already given half a million dollars to more than 30 classrooms on the Big Island."
I think he's referring to the "Journey through the Universe" Program. It is indeed a great program, but the context is a little confusing. Most of the money spent is on Telescope staff visiting the classroom(which is great for them), but not much on the schools themselves. Where are the telescopes, scholarships, and career opportunities?
Remember, I stated "great program"; but when tens of millions are being generated on a Billion dollar program, The State/UH could do much better. $500,000 spent on Their own employees is insufficient.
This is not a "stick up". It's an investment in our future. Most developments elsewhere are mandated to divert 1%-10% of their budget towards public art. I think this same scale should be used for our children.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - rainyjim - 04-16-2015
People all around the word have suffered wrongs in the past. If we tried to right every past wrong we'd just end up in one hopeless circle jerk of shuffling money about from one marginalized ethnicity to the next. Eventually there would be no surplus and everyone would have to go back to work. The concept of X was taken from me so I deserve Y in return contradicts itself because accepting Y in return is just taking X from someone else. When does it end? Because something bad happened in the past we are entitled to any arbitrary thing we might think of with that kind of logic anyone and everyone is entitled to reparations from somebody.
Not having a clear idea of world history and current events in combination must ease the mental process of finding it morally and ethically acceptable to accept a handout.
TANSTAAFL - "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch"
The protestors demanding reparations are blithely ignoring the fact that the money has to come from somewhere. Who's going to foot their free lunch? And how is that any more acceptable than the very wrongs they are demanding to be righted?
I can only assume they just don't give a f**k as long as they get what they want it doesn't matter where it comes from.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - kalakoa - 04-16-2015
Lease: Currently $300,000 a year. To increase incrementally to $1.08 million when operational. Eighty percent goes to Office of Mauna Kea Management; 20 percent goes to Office of Hawaiian Affairs.
I'm not convinced that this money will actually benefit the general public, nor it is clear that this "new" revenue won't be offset by other budgetary adjustments.
Would there still be an argument if the royalties were paid to all residents of the island, as is done with Alaska oil drilling? (Yes, island -- not state -- Oahu and others don't have to live with the TMT.)
Ultimately, everything is for sale. Let's just set prices, take the payouts and be done with it; the argument is a waste of everyone's time.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - snorkle - 04-16-2015
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" Actually, rainyjim, there is. At my children's school, since 80% of the children fall under being "at risk", All the kids are offered a free lunch. I know..., disgusting; But they don't have access to much STEM curricula or equipment. Makes it more difficult to break the cycle of poverty.
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - OnoOno - 04-16-2015
quote:It's not FREE, its just paid for by people more responsible than the parents of those children - people who actually prepared themselves for, and actively participate in the execution of their responsibilities, including providing for their children's needs.
Originally posted by snorkle
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" Actually, rainyjim, there is. At my children's school, since 80% of the children fall under being "at risk", All the kids are offered a free lunch. I know..., disgusting; But they don't have access to much STEM curricula or equipment. Makes it more difficult to break the cycle of poverty.
The only real solution to the cycle of poverty is a job properly attended to by the holder thereof (or a business diligently run by same). Freebies rarely help, especially in the long term - even in Puna!
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - OnoOno - 04-16-2015
quote:Precisely.
Originally posted by rainyjim
Ironyak,
Not ignoring you.
It is a complex idea.
To start, as knifet pointed out "not building the TMT does not solve the reparations gripe" illustrates my sentiments exactly in the rational disconnect or fallacy of attempting to block the construction of a new telescope as if that will have some bearing on reparations.
Second, a Opihikao pointed out "as to the 1 million dollars a year...might buy them lunch in 2016" illustrates just one of many instances in which money is expected from this organization. Why does anyone feel entitled to a handout from the telescope in the first place? (assumption here: because it's on our land on our island?) I surely never felt entitled to random handouts from any new enterprises / businesses that happened to open shop in my neck of the woods, and the only place I have encountered this attitude is Hawai'i. Be it geothermal or TMT if there's money to be made people here are quick to try and put their hands in the pot - always under the guise of "for the keiki". If it were up to me I'd choose to teach the keiki how to take care of themselves not feed off of the success of others like a parasite.
The aspect of Hawai'i being an entitlement culture is no new idea, I'm not sure why this comes as a foreign idea to you. The whole state is subsidized federally by the other 49 states and that's just the tip of the entitlement iceberg.
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
RE: TMT groundbreaking - live - snorkle - 04-16-2015
rainyjim asks;
" Why does anyone feel entitled to a handout from the telescope in the first place?"
It's the law.
At the time of annexation, the former Crown lands were given ("ceded") to the US Federal Government. When Hawai#699;i became a U.S. state, the lands were transferred to the state. The federal act authorizing the transfer required that the lands be held in trust and that revenue from the land be used for five purposes: (These excerpts actually came from the Statehood Act 1959)
1. Support of public education
2. Betterment of the conditions of native Hawaiians as defined in the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act of 1920 (The Hawaiian Homes Commission Act 1920 did not exist in 1893)
3. Development of farm and home ownership
4. Public improvements
5. Provision of lands for public use