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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - knieft - 07-24-2019
Based on twisting the meaning of “Master Navigator Kalepa Baybayan says it’s been hard to be one of the few Native Hawaiians vocally advocating for the telescopes over the last decade or so"
into
A majority of Hawaiians are against the TMT.
Vocally advocating. Not for or against TMT.
Social media logic?
Cheers,
Kirt
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-24-2019
"So, I ask, if the guy says that, and he aint talking survey, or votes or some such, he's talking about his life. A Navigator, a revered member of the Hawaiian community is saying you're wrong 007. That he is the minority."
He's saying he's one of the few native Hawaiians who are vocally advocating for the telescopes, not that he is a minority of native Hawaiians.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-24-2019
who are vocally advocating
Yeah I know, and saw it clearly, but will tell you, the Hawaiians can speak for themselves, and one of them, who is in favor of the TMT's development is saying that he is in the minority. And yes, your business, your job, your concerns, and cultural norms all say you have to belittle, challenge and diminish the point Kalepa makes. Rather than recognizing it's a valid point, and looking for resolution through acknowledging rather than denying the world around you.
Josh Green is an even minded, highly educated, and long time member and major contributor to our community, and you don't seem to be able to listen to what he is saying either.
From today's Trib..
Green said the time is approaching for a “reckoning” to determine whether the TMT project can go forward.
“The people with the most wisdom feel we can’t go forward without cracking the foundation of the Hawaiian culture,” he said.
But as I said, how could you hear what Josh is saying? How could you possibly understand what he is saying? Your passions would never let you. Your world view can not see such a thing. At least that's how it looks from mine.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Rob Tucker - 07-24-2019
Actually Glinda your POV appears to be closely matched to that last paragraph you wrote too.
Just an observation.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-24-2019
"Yeah I know, and saw it clearly, but will tell you, the Hawaiians can speak for themselves, and one of them, who is in favor of the TMT's development is saying that he is in the minority. And yes, your business, your job, your concerns, and cultural norms all say you have to belittle, challenge and diminish the point Kalepa makes. Rather than recognizing it's a valid point, and looking for resolution through acknowledging rather than denying the world around you."
If you saw it clearly, why twist it so much? And you still don't get it. He says he's in the minority of those that are vocal. I don't know if you are being stupid or you are assuming others are stupid, but the latter is a dangerous place to go.
There are statements from other native Hawaiians supporting the TMT and the observatories, so you are spinning things again. There are several examples but will provide just one for the moment, from your favorite Honolulu Civil Beat:
https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/07/tmt-means-progress-for-hawaiis-future/
I have many others available if you want.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-24-2019
You say the protestors represent a majority of Native Hawaiians.
I am saying the survey you are hanging your hat on doesn't reflect reality. It may reflect a sampling of Hawaiians that have been successfully assimilated into American society, but I doubt it takes into account those that have not. And the difference is not those with money verses those without. It's an entirely different thing.
Having spent most of my life on all parts of the east side of this island, and interacted with Hawaiians for more than 40 years, I'd say 90 percent here are not assimilated in that way. They do not think of themselves as Americans. And, until this matter with the TMT came up, they have held the tongue. In the Hawaiian culture to rise up as the people are now has not been their way. I think contributing to surveys isn't either.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-24-2019
And to be clear.. I agree Tom, you are right from your side, and I am right from mine. And the magic of anything that will actually make all this humbug go away and everyone live happily ever after is to find a middle grown. Hopefully Harry can thread that needle.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-24-2019
"And to be clear.. I agree Tom, you are right from your side, and I am right from mine."
I don't understand. From my side, I'm posting verifiable information. From your side, you are spinning things so much that they turn into outright lies.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-24-2019
As I said, I am sure you are right Tom, positive.
And hey, you can have a t-shirt too.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-24-2019
I'd say 90 percent here are not assimilated in that way.
So based on speculation, 90% of Native Hawaiians agree with the protestors on Mauna Kea? Or 80%? 70%?
Is that right?
Or do you have other indicators which prove your claim that a majority of Native Hawaiians back the issues put forward by the protestors?
It’s not enough to claim a poll is wrong, then say the opposition numbers are some kind of majority, and base it on nothing.