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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-24-2019
"As I said, I am sure you are right Tom, positive.
And hey, you can have a t-shirt too."
I can have a T-shirt because I've responded to the inaccuracies and lies in your posts?
No thanks.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-24-2019
See the thing is Tom, those folks on the mountain, and all their followers, are people who you do not respect. At least your words suggest as much. As such I can not imagine you have the ability to understand them. Which is fine. Whatever floats your boat. Let's just be happy you are not the one tapped to unravel all this.
Harry might be able to do it. He's a local boy with an understanding of a community Ige would never be able to understand. But you need to grok this is not about the TMT. Though it is a big enough icon that it was easy when they saw that thing coming to say enough is enough.
I think, hope, this will find a middle ground. Though I seriously suspect it's going to require some real giving on state's part and the TMT may be caught in the middle of all that and become the sacrificial lamb. Which would be a shame. It really would.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-24-2019
"See the thing is Tom, those folks on the mountain, and all their followers, are people who you do not respect. At least your words suggest as much."
There you go again. I don't have followers and I respect what the protesters are doing, I understand what they are doing and respect the fact they have kept things peaceful. I have friends up there and many observatory staff have friends and family at the protest site. I do, however, have a problem with the law not being enforced.
So, another piece of misinformation from you and a blatant straw man to boot. Seriously, do you actually read my posts and simply attempt to put words into my mouth? Right now you're telling me what I think and it is absolutely wrong.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 07-24-2019
One of the problems for those that support the TMT is that if they post their opinions on social media they are immediately confronted by some really nasty posts which then evolve into nasty and racist exchanges. It's been much more gentle here, but glinda's posts have shown how those against the TMT will make up stuff in order to defend their position.
I'm grateful for those that support astronomy on Mauna Kea and am also grateful that the protesters have remained non-violent and have maintained a peaceful and welcoming protest site, even if some of it is illegal. I understand their position even if I don't agree with it.
However, I will never support lies, misinformation, spinning facts into lies and misrepresenting what someone has said. If glinda could stop doing that, I think we could have a useful discussion here. If the protesters could do the same, then maybe something positive will come out of this, but we already know they can't be trusted, so regaining that trust will take some time.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Rob Tucker - 07-24-2019
I can tell you what Harry understands. And it might be successful. Harry understand the Benjamins.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - glinda - 07-24-2019
I really do think it would be a shame to lose the TMT, and the advancements it promises in our understand of our universe. But what I believe Josh Green was saying is all that, to the people here, the people born here, is far less important than preserving the fabric of the community. The love people feel for each other. The nods and smile passed between them a they go about their day. The smiles when they see each other in KTA's parking lot. The parties, the sporting events, graduations, weddings, and baby showers, all the I went to school with his sister, my cousin married his brother, we go to the same church, yeah we are in the same halau, the same canoe club. All the camping and fishing and surfing and another generation of kids growing up together. And the funerals. All the shared moments that bind, the magic of what enriches a close knit island society, the magic of how their lives are all intertwined. That is what I think Josh Green was talking about. What is critical that it be protected, preserved.
As such, and as I said all along. I really wish the TMT hadn't become the icon of something it really has nothing to do with. It's a pawn in a drama set in motion lifetimes ago. But that's what it is. It is the grain of sand in which the line was drawn.
Hopefully Harry will find a way. I really hope so. And you know, I know Harry, and know how sacred he holds the well-being of this island's community. I also know, in the past he's been more comfortable in his role as dictator of events, as was his to do as CD director, than he was with the democratic process of being Mayor. Though he's aged, and this really is a critical moment involving all the people he grew up with. He's not just a mayor, he's deeply woven into that fabric himself. This is his personal community. In other words his heart is in it too. So with that I'm praying he can find the way, he'll figure out what to do..
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - MarkP - 07-24-2019
"So, I ask, if the guy says that, and he aint talking survey, or votes or some such, he's talking about his life. A Navigator, a revered member of the Hawaiian community is saying you're wrong 007. That he is the minority."
He very clearly stated that those who speak their mind are in the minority. This is completely consistent with my suspicion that I have not heard from the silent majority of Hawaiians. His life that you refer to is that he gets pushback for speaking his mind.
It is my opinion that the people blocking the road right now care most about themselves, not about the community and in fact it is they that are tearing at the fabric of the community. They may be doing so unknowingly but still they are the ones causing the harm.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - randomq - 07-25-2019
Ige could "reset" the situation by opening the access road / mauna to all, with the warning that anyone blocking the road or construction will be arrested. "We can all share the mauna." Additionally, the venue will be shifted to a much colder, higher altitude.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 07-25-2019
Josh Green was saying is all that, to the people here, the people born here, is far less important than preserving the fabric of the community.
So your argument is one group, on one side of the TMT issue has torn apart the fabric of the community for years, and the other other side now is solely responsible for giving them what they want, without compromise so the fabric of the community can be preserved?
How many Native Hawaiians are using the TMT as “a pawn” (your term)? If you are absolutely certain the Mason-Dixon poll showing 72% support for the TMT is wrong as you’ve stated repeatedly, it must be born out by another set of numbers that are more accurate? What are those numbers? What is the sample and methodology that shows a majority of Native Hawaiians object to the TMT and/or support the protestors?
If you don’t know, say you don’t know, and allow the protestors to speak for themselves and not a hoped for, wished for, magical majority.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - dan d - 07-25-2019
So. I went by twice yesterday. Fdom the hilo side , only 2 police tents. Traffic crossing at tne intersection . Quick and thru. Comming baCk lotsa copz kon side.
2 min stop for crossing gaurd.
Its. A 2 mi long parking part peps camping every where. CArs parked only 6 ft
Fm asphzulrt
Push back bariers 10 ft, letem park safer, crozs only 2 times per hr
HPP