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+--- Thread: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV (/showthread.php?tid=14270)
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - Wao nahele kane - 08-22-2014
Lavalava,
Historically speaking when it comes to the dangers of industrial activity within a residential community people have become irreversibly harmed and in many cases dead from emitted toxins and sometimes the industry activity as a result banned. Arrogance around such matters doesn't help find solutions to very real problems and I for one would like to see geothermal energy advance and thrive within this community.
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - kalakoa - 08-22-2014
the dangers of industrial activity within a residential community
Such as a poopy-truck baseyard, perhaps?
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - lavalava - 08-22-2014
[quote]Originally posted by Wao nahele kane
help find solutions to very real problems
[quote]
Show me the proof of these "very real problems". Then we can talk turkey.
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - Wao nahele kane - 08-22-2014
Lavalava,
First off, do you agree or disagree with the CDC finding of 1ppm/1000ppb of h2s being hazardous to the public and that it warrants evacuation of the area?
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - Opihikaobob - 08-22-2014
Steam release causes concern Hawaii Tribune Herald 8/21/2014
Extracts from article , with my commentary added in Italics
The release, which included hydrogen sulfide....
Blocked roadways prevented the FD hazmat team from reaching the site to take hydrogen sulfide readings and stationary monitors were offline because of power outages.
[Abbreviated from here on]
staff took measurements with hand held meters.....
Mike Kaleikini....... said the 7 staff members were present and didn't report any health impacts (note: in Harry Kim's report he said that they said that they were in fact understaffed the night of 8/6/2014)
yada yada yada.................................
Later on in the article:
With the concentration unclear.......
Wind speeds unclear..........
Oliveira speaking: requested PGV speak with Helco about coordinating a plant shut down prior to the arrival of another storm. Civil Defense provided the plant with generators to keep monitors running during power outages. - (stock up batteries & water, etc, before another event - umm, how come CD is providing Generators worth big bucks to a company that rightly should have it's own generator's)?
Additionally the county is planning to conduct a geothermal health study to asses impacts from the plant.
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - Chas - 08-22-2014
Yeah, really lavalava, please butt out. You never have anything constructive to say.
I am finding this conversation, though a bit heated at times, quite informative. These guys have differing points of view, and they are trying their best to intelligently discuss the issue without letting their emotions take over.
Please continue with your debate. I know it's hard, but please do your best to contain your obvious strong feelings about this issue and try to convince me why your viewpoint is the correct one. Or maybe come to consensus of both of your viewpoints?
I have learned a lot in the last day or so thanks to you.
Chas
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - Chas - 08-22-2014
lavalava, I tried to email you privately but there was no info in your profile to do so.
I deleted some of my posts. if anyone is wondering why he asked me about the plant tour, I did ask kind of a dumb question... didn't want to muddy up the conversation.
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - geochem - 08-22-2014
quote:
Originally posted by Wao nahele kane
Geochem,
You appear to be hung upon and befuddled by my comments regarding so2. ....
You at least got that much of it right. SO2 has nothing to do with the steam release - and it's apparent that you aren't entirely clear on the difference between SO2 and H2S....
"Of the two gasses H2S is the more dangerous because of the necessity for it to be at relatively hazardous levels before noticing its odor."
Complete nonsense: hydrogen sulfide can be detected by most humans at around 10 to 15 parts per billion in air; it doesn't become acutely dangerous until concentrations get into the range of 500,000 parts per billion. OSHA allows exposures of 10,000 parts per billion for 8 hours per day and 40 hours per week. Higher levels can cause eye irritation - and prolonged exposure at those levels can cause lung irritation. So there is a factor of 1000 between the levels that hydrogen sulfide can be smelled and levels that are legally permitted for 8 hour exposure and a factor of 10,000 between odor threshold and significant physiological irritation from longer exposure.
"So2 on the other hand is for more noticeable at lower concentrations."
Safety literature lists the odor threshold in humans for SO2 as 300 ppb to as high as 4700 ppb - or at least a thirty-times higher concentration than hydrogen sulfide. Sulfur dioxide is acutely irritating to most people at nearly those same levels and is a lethal threat to many who suffer from asthma at concentrations below the higher odor threshold value listed.
The reason I am befuddled by your claims/concerns about sulfur dioxide/hydrogen sulfide is that they have no basis in reality.
The same is true of your concerns about thermal fluids being pushed to the surface by the closing in of the geothermal wells. There are lots of fractures in Hawaii's rocks - the rocks aren't what prevents the high temperature geothermal fluids from coming to the surface. What accomplishes that is the ~2000 psi of hydrostatic pressure of the groundwater system above the geothermal reservoir. The wells operate at a pressure in the range of 250 psi more or less - when a well is shut in, the hydrostatic pressures at the well intake can be translated to the well if the shut in is not done in a controlled fashion - but the steam is not going to re-route itself outside of the well bore against that 2000 psi hydrotstatic pressure.
So again, your understanding of the processes going on in the reservoir is not based on reality in any way I can determine.
"I would appreciate for moment that you got off your assumption horse and put that big brain of yours into possible explanations for the victims claims other than assuming they are all stupid ignorant people just trying to manipulate the system."
You seem to be the one making assumptions - and I certainly don't assume that the people making all the bogus claims are stupid - many are quite smart, and will say whatever they think they have to to get what they want - whether that is compensation, or it is to ensure that geothermal development doesn't happen in a place they have chosen to stake out as their back yard.
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - dakine - 08-22-2014
hey geo and wao.. lets face it the proponents and opponents of geothermal are never going to get all warm and fuzzy about each other.. though adding a bit of civility to the discussion might go a long way towards peacefully co-existing as much as that is possible
and hey.. right or wrong... and whether or not there was a real release of a real dangerous gas etc.. or if the public is having real health issue or it's all psychosomatic.. it doesn't matter the issue is settle.. too many people have moved in and made the area a community.. and geothermal.. or any other heavy industry.. is an out right inappropriate land use in such a community.
geochem had you and the all the other life long geothermal proponents... when you made your map and the geothermal sub-zones... come out and bought up a bunch of land in the area you might have pulled it off. but instead you placed your bet with campbell in the upper and then middle rift.. and came up empty handed... and on top of that the way you all played that out all the land is now in preserve.. i.e. you screwed yourselves! so what do you want? to push everyone aside so we all can have a bunch of heavy industry in what is otherwise a very populated rural and semi-urban farming and bedroom community?
btw.. as one that was a member of PGC and has been an opponent all these years... I must say you had it.. you would have pulled it off and there would already be a major geothermal industry here had you just gotten true geothermal better data on the structure of the middle rift when they came out and did those test wells. had they hit a resource you'd of been in business.. and god knows there's plenty of resource there.. but nope.. a bunch of cowboys from Wyoming couldn't find frickin steam on the rift to save their lives.
my point is you had your chance and burnt the upper and middle rift.. but that's where you placed your bet. so please be a gracious looser and give it up already!
RE: People of Leilani ordered tested ? - PGV - TomK - 08-22-2014
Chas,
"I deleted some of my posts. if anyone is wondering why he asked me about the plant tour, I did ask kind of a dumb question... didn't want to muddy up the conversation."
That's very honest of you, thank you. There was a post of yours I wanted to reply to in another thread, but that's gone as far as I can see (unless I'm mistaken) so won't reply to it.
Honesty is so refreshing to see these days. Thank you, Chas.