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+--- Thread: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval (/showthread.php?tid=16551)
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - Mtviewdude - 10-26-2015
quote:
Originally posted by Kaimana
quote:
Originally posted by Kapoho Joe
You don't get a treaty when you get conquered. You are lucky to survive. Marinate on that.
And this is why talks about this never get anywhere. Instead of attacking the argument at hand you(not you in particular, generally speaking) reply with "be happy it could be worse". But that doesn't address the argument. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
And actually almost every time a nation was conquered in "modern" times there has been a treaty involved. There is usually a treaty of cession before being totally wiped out.hrug:.
Actually what happened with the Hawaiian Kingdom was less a war and more of a coup. It wasn't an foreign nation conquering the islands, it was internal factions of Hawaii citizens (with the help of outside parties)that overthrew the Queen.
There have been a lot of example of coup's taking place recently without treaties. Just the past decade there have been coup's in Egypt and Thailand, and there are quite a few more other examples.
I won't even bother to get into the international law argument.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - shockwave rider - 10-26-2015
HOPTPE: "And as others have noted, the Hawaiian people were not "totally wiped out."
Being reduced to a low of 40,000 people from a population somewhere between 500,000 and triple that number, depending on which "expert" you believe, may not be total eradication, but it comes pretty close. While the drastic reduction of the Hawaiian population was not a conscious act by anyone, there were a lot of different factions just waiting to take advantage of it and disenfranchise the Hawaiian people.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - opihikao - 10-26-2015
quote:Aloha, HOTPE. Yes, you're right, to some extent. However, Hawai'i had a treaty with Japan in 1871. (*Snipped - More at link incl. document with signatures)
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
Winning side? When did the US go to war with Hawaii?
Exactly. There was no war, so there was no treaty of cessation because there was nothing to cease. And as others have noted, the Hawaiian people were not "totally wiped out."
Here is a list of conflicts in the 20th century. How many ended with a treaty of cessation? I think if you check you'll find your statement "almost any major war ended with some sort of treaty of cession when one side knew they had been defeated" is the exception rather than the rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:20th-century_conflicts
As to my comment about a small dignity in the transfer of power, the movie "Emperor" provides an example of what I meant. During the period of uncertainty after Japan lost World War 2 there was no consensus between American politicians and the military about what to do with Emperor Hirohito. In the end General MacArthur won the day when he advocated that the Emperor be allowed to live, which allowed MacArthur to work with Hirohito on the reconstruction of Japan. It proved to be the best possible outcome for both Japan and America.
WHEREAS, a Treaty of Amity and Commerce between His Majesty the King, and His Imperial Majesty the Tenno of Japan, was concluded at Yeddo, on the 19th day of August, 1871, which has been ratified by His Majesty the King, and His Imperial Majesty, the Tenno of Japan, and the ratifications duly exchanged — which Treaty is, word for word, as follows:
His Majesty the King of the Hawaiian Islands, and His Imperial Japanese Majesty, the Tenno, being equally animated by the desire to establish relations of friendship between the two countries, have resolved to conclude a Treaty, reciprocally advantageous, and for that purpose have named their Plenipotentiaries, that is to say, His Majestythe King of the Hawaiian Islands, His Excellency C. E. Do Long, appointed and commissioned by His Majesty, Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary of the Kingdom of Hawaii, near the Government of His Majesty, the Tenno of Japan, and His Imperial Japanese Majesty, the Tenno, His Excellency Sawa Iusanme Kiyowara Noluyoshe, Minister for Foreign Affairs, and His Excellency Terachima Jusee Fugiwara Munemori, First Assistant Minister for Foreign Affairs, who having communicated to each other their respective full powers, which are found in good order, and in proper form, have agreed upon the following Articles:
Article I. There shall be perpetual peace and friendship between His Majesty the King of the Hawaiian Islands, and His Imperial Japanese Majesty, the Tenno, their heirs and successors, and between their respective subjects.
Article II. The subjects of each of the two high contracting parties, respectively, shall have the liberty freely and securely to come with their ships and cargoes to all places, ports and rivers in the territories of the other, where trade with other nations is permitted; they may remain and reside in any such ports, and places respectively, and hire and occupyhouses and warehouses, and may trade in all kinds of produce, manufactures and merchandise of lawful commerce, enjoying at all times the same privileges as may have been, or may hereafter be granted to the citizens or subjects of any other nation, paying at all times such duties and taxes as may be exacted from the citizens or subjects of other nations doing business or residing within the territories of each of the high contracting parties.
Article III. (etc.)
http://hawaiiankingdom.org/treaty_japan1871.shtml
JMO.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - opihikao - 10-26-2015
quote:EO! Well stated.
Originally posted by shockwave rider
HOPTPE: "And as others have noted, the Hawaiian people were not "totally wiped out."
Being reduced to a low of 40,000 people from a population somewhere between 500,000 and triple that number, depending on which "expert" you believe, may not be total eradication, but it comes pretty close. While the drastic reduction of the Hawaiian population was not a conscious act by anyone, there were a lot of different factions just waiting to take advantage of it and disenfranchise the Hawaiian people.
Of interest, as mentioned previously, the book "Change We Must", by Mama Veary, combined with "Then There Were None", by Elizabeth Lindsey, about the Hawaiian population dwindling en masse addresses this particular point.
Thus, those of us who are left, need to be maka'ala in moving forward. Specifically, for our ohana, when Kupuna signed the Ku'e Petition, we must honor their wishes, while dealing with the reality of today. Find balance. Hiki no. (Can do.)
Rest well, all. Aloha ahiahi.
JMO.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 10-26-2015
shockwave rider:
Being reduced to a low of 40,000 people from a population somewhere between 500,000 and triple that number
My comment was a reply to Kaimana's statement about the 1893 overthrow: There is usually a treaty of cession before being totally wiped out.
hrug:.While it's true the low point for the Hawaiian population was about 40,000 in 1893, it has increased since that time.
Chart: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/04/18/398578801/it-took-two-centuries-but-the-native-hawaii-ans-has-finally-bounced-back
The Hawaiian population decreased from the time Captain Cook arrived, and only began to increase after the overthrow in 1893, which would seemingly contradict Kaimana's statement.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - shockwave rider - 10-26-2015
quote:
Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge
shockwave rider:
Being reduced to a low of 40,000 people from a population somewhere between 500,000 and triple that number
My comment was a reply to Kaimana's statement about the 1893 overthrow: There is usually a treaty of cession before being totally wiped out.
While it's true the low point for the Hawaiian population was about 40,000 in 1893, it has increased since that time.
Chart: http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/04/18/398578801/it-took-two-centuries-but-the-native-hawaii-ans-has-finally-bounced-back
The Hawaiian population decreased from the time Captain Cook arrived, and only began to increase after the overthrow in 1893, which would seemingly contradict Kaimana's statement.
One possible explanation for the increase in the part Hawaiian population (not pure Hawaiian which is very rare ever since reaching that 40,000 low) after the overthrow is that the intermarriage of Hawaiians with the plantation workers and others with genetic resistance to diseases like the common cold and chicken pox that were so fatal to the Hawaiians increased the number of people who survived those diseases. So at a biological level, both the destruction and the saving of the Hawaiian people may have been close contact with foreigners.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - PunaMauka2 - 10-26-2015
Now we are starting to touch on the points of view concerning racial purity.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - opihikao - 10-26-2015
Pffft...Purity? LOL!
Get over it.
JMO.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - shockwave rider - 10-27-2015
quote:
Originally posted by PunaMauka2
Now we are starting to touch on the points of view concerning racial purity.
I just knew one of you would jump on that, but I used the word "pure" for the sake of brevity. The concept of "how Hawaiian" someone is exists all ready here, I didn't make it up. To attend Kamehameha schools, dance at Merrie Monarch, and all sorts of other "Hawaiian" related things requires proving you had at least one ancestor here before Cook arrived. If I said I was "pure" Sicilian no one would bat an eye, but use the same phrase in relationship to a Pacific Island population who had been living in isolation for at the least a good number of centuries and suddenly people get all bothered.
Biologically speaking, when a population has been in isolation that long they develop a distinct gene pool, when they have contact and intermarry with newcomers that gene pool changes. The newcomers genes in this case brought greater resistance to the foreign communicable diseases ravaging the Hawaiian population.
RE: Hawaiians-Only Election Gets Court Approval - PunaMauka2 - 10-27-2015
Uh huh. I suppose "half breed" is off the table though.