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+--- Thread: HISTORY AS PROMISED (/showthread.php?tid=23434)
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - MyManao - 10-13-2024
(10-13-2024, 05:12 PM)Punatang Wrote: Income tax is slavery. Property tax insinuates that you never owned it in the first place.
I'm curious, how would you suggest we manage our common affairs if not with representatives? Because, clearly, you don't think we should have a government. So, what do you suggest?
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - Patricia - 10-14-2024
Owners need not be members. (Back to HPP)
The attached refers to an order handed down from the Hawaii Third Circuit Court 2001.
If you are an HPP Owner, who is not a member of HPPOA, the only thing HPPOA can charge you for is road maintenance. If you are an HPP Owner, who is not an HPPOA member, you are not required to pay for club dues or contribute to any HPPOA pet projects that have nothing to do with roads.
Then and now, history matters.
Aloha
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - Punatang - 10-14-2024
(10-13-2024, 10:27 PM)MyManao Wrote:What is clear is that you have poor reading comprehension. Your logic is also defective. Aloha(10-13-2024, 05:12 PM)Punatang Wrote: Income tax is slavery. Property tax insinuates that you never owned it in the first place.
I'm curious, how would you suggest we manage our common affairs if not with representatives? Because, clearly, you don't think we should have a government. So, what do you suggest?
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - kalakoa - 10-14-2024
Membership in the HOA is typically mandated via CC&R. Check the deed.
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - MyManao - 10-14-2024
Membership in the HOA is typically mandated via CC&R. Check the deed.
Yep, imagine folks saying they won't pay because some chick on PW told them they don't need to..
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - Patricia - 10-14-2024
(10-14-2024, 07:29 PM)MyManao Wrote: Membership in the HOA is typically mandated via CC&R. Check the deed.---------------
Yep, imagine folks saying they won't pay because some chick on PW told them they don't need to..
Hawaiian Paradise Park Owners Association (HPPOA) is not an HOA. They are a voluntary community association that owns properties in the Park along with some of the roads, which were deeded to them by David Watumull. Hawaiian Paradise Park Owners Association are Owners, just like every other owner in HPP. HPPOA just owns a lot more property and is allowed, because of court order, to collect road maintenance fee money (not club dues) which is supposed to be used solely to pay for the maintenance of HPP roads.
HPP owners do not have to be members of the voluntary club.and they do not have to pay dues, or fund anything else but roads. All HPP Owners, regardless of their HPPOA membership or nonmembership status, must pay Road Maintenace Fees to HPPOA.
HPP Owners are not bound by any CC&Rs. There is nothing in an HPP Owners deed, other than a reference that some of them own 1/5250th of the roads in HPP. Other HPP deeds, as in the one my family and I have, contain a reference to Watumull's company, stating that his company owns the roads and the roads are considered collective easements.
HPPOA has no authority to demand, collect, speak for, or arrange, anything for HPP owners that has nothing to do with HPP roads- period.
While the courts can and do force owners to pay mandatory road maintenance fees, neither the court or HPPOA can force HPP Owners to become a member of a voluntary club.
I and my family are not members of HPPOA, but we do pay our mandatory road fee money.
Aloha, from the chic on PW
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - leilanidude - 10-14-2024
They are a voluntary community association that owns properties in the Park along with some of the roads, which were deeded to them by David Watumull. Hawaiian Paradise Park Owners Association are Owners, just like every other owner in HPP. HPPOA just owns a lot more property and is allowed, because of court order, to collect road maintenance fee money (not club dues) which is supposed to be used solely to pay for the maintenance of HPP roads.
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Do they pay anything for owning those properties? Do they pay property taxes? HOA fees? Road maintenance fees?
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - Patricia - 10-14-2024
(10-14-2024, 09:49 PM)leilanidude Wrote: They are a voluntary community association that owns properties in the Park along with some of the roads, which were deeded to them by David Watumull. Hawaiian Paradise Park Owners Association are Owners, just like every other owner in HPP. HPPOA just owns a lot more property and is allowed, because of court order, to collect road maintenance fee money (not club dues) which is supposed to be used solely to pay for the maintenance of HPP roads.
-------------
Do they pay anything for owning those properties? Do they pay property taxes? HOA fees? Road maintenance fees?
HPPOA pays property taxes. A small amount of property taxes. HPPOA is not an HOA, so no owners pay HOA fees. HPPOA collects road fees, which I guess leads them to feel they are exempt from monetarily contributing to road maintenance. In addition, HPPOA stopped collecting their voluntary membership dues years ago- operating "under the assumption" that HPP owners would not bother to revisit history, deeds, or court orders, and find out that HPPOA is nothing more than an administrator who is supposed to collect and manage Road Maintenance Fees.
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - Obie - 10-14-2024
" I and my family are not members of HPPOA, but we do pay our mandatory road fee money. "
Definition from the bylaws.
"Section 9. Member. Any owner of one or more lots in Hawaiian Paradise Park."
RE: HISTORY AS PROMISED - Patricia - 10-15-2024
(10-14-2024, 10:54 PM)Obie Wrote: " I and my family are not members of HPPOA, but we do pay our mandatory road fee money. "----------
Definition from the bylaws.
"Section 9. Member. Any owner of one or more lots in Hawaiian Paradise Park."
Aloha
You cannot enforce an illegal bylaw.
The Hawaii courts recognized that Paradise Hui Hanalike, now HPPOA, was/is a voluntary community association. So, while the court could give Paradise Hui Hanalike (HPPOA) the authority to collect and act as the administrator of road funds, the court could not force HPP Owners to be HPPOA members- that would be a violation of a person's right to free association (a Federal Law).
The problem HPPOA had and the reason they decided to make all owners "automatic" members, is because only members (they were an elite bunch) were allowed to vote- and the court said, "No way. You cannot force owners to pay road fee money and not allow them the right to vote= ultra vires."
So, HPPOA said, "We know. We'll make every owner a member and then they can all vote."
And the court said, "Okay. But you still need to tell owners that they do not have to be members, but will still have to pay road fee money and will still have the right to vote whether they are members or not."
But oops... Down the road HPPOA forgot about all of the above, "forgot" to tell owners about not having to be members, and illegally amended the HPPOA bylaws in 2010.
My family and I are not HPPOA members. The HPPOA board president sent me an email stating that HPPOA received our relinquishment of membership and that we are on "the non-members list." In addition, I have never been denied the right to vote- HPPOA knows they cannot force us to pay and not allow us to vote, regarding how are money is managed and spent. And the other really beautiful thing? HPPOA cannot demand that my family and I pay for or fund anything except maintenance of HPP roads.