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+--- Thread: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) (/showthread.php?tid=23561)
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - Moderator 2 - 02-09-2025
Question for those posting pdf, court excerpts etc:
What is the purpose of posting them here?
How can this information be used by the average resident of HPP? Can they affect the lawsuits in any way?
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - HiloJulie - 02-09-2025
"What is the purpose of posting them here?"
"How can this information be used by the average resident of HPP? Can they affect the lawsuits in any way?"
Since the OP posted the PDF Statement from ONE of the three parties involved, I thought it was only fair to be able to see the same PDF Statements from the other involved parties.
As for what the average HPP resident can glean from them, is well, information. Unbiased information. Being able to see ALL the moving parts of the "equation" versus the sometimes very prejudiced view of just one part of that equation.
The average HPP resident SHOULD be involved in this. This could impact you severely. Poo-pooing it, or just pressing that giant "ignore" button, serves YOU the average HPP resident nothing. What is the average HPP resident going to do if the court ultimately rules that the mailboxes got to go? You're already into this, right, wrong, or indifferent for over 500k in cash. What if the ruling forces HPP to reimburse the USPS the 2 million? What's it going to cost to rip the boxes out? Or awards significant damages to the Plaintiff? And remember, your Plaintiff is an individual, representing herself "In pro per," and as such - in the event the Plaintiff loses on ALL counts, what is there to ultimately go after for any potential award of damages for HPPOA?
Also, the posting of these documents can no way affect the lawsuit in any way, since it is public information, available for purchase.
And while I may disagree with virtually every METHOD of Patricia's quest to bring this issue to light, SOME of the points she is making here, with this lawsuit, could have serious repercussions.
Sometimes, well, most times, the "law" and "common sense" are not hand in hand. OJ was innocent, remember?
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - Patricia - 02-09-2025
How can this information be used by the average resident of HPP? Can they affect the lawsuits in any way?
Hello, M2.
If you are asking if HPP Owners can affect the lawsuit, I would say I do not know...
If you are asking if the court docs are relevant to HPP Owners (especially those who wish to stay informed) I would say, yes.
Without info, HPP owners are left in the dark, seeing as HPPOA does not do a good (or even fair) job of informing them (The excerpt, taken from the president's letter, which was sent out to all HPP owners in their road fee bill, is a good example.)
As Julie has said, it is only right to have info presented from all sides.
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - Moderator 2 - 02-09-2025
What is the average HPP resident going to do if the court ultimately rules that the mailboxes got to go?
What if the ruling forces HPP to reimburse the USPS the 2 million? What's it going to cost to rip the boxes out? Or awards significant damages to the Plaintiff?
what is there to ultimately go after for any potential award of damages for HPPOA?
Can an HPP resident affect this outcome in anyway?
What I’m asking is, by reading the pdfs, excerpts, etc will it enable HPP residents to engage as active participants and change the outcome, or are they spectators?
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - Obie - 02-09-2025
"What I’m asking is, by reading the pdfs, excerpts, etc will it enable HPP residents to engage as active participants and change the outcome"
It's too early to predict an outcome and what way would you change it ?
The best way to engage as an active participant is to attend or follow meetings and to participate in the elections
The upcoming membership meeting should be interesting because Patricia will be there to present her latest manifesto.
Hopefully the board will have a security guard to either shut down her outbursts or escort her out.
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - HiloJulie - 02-09-2025
"Can an HPP resident affect this outcome in anyway?"
"What I’m asking is, by reading the pdfs, excerpts, etc will it enable HPP residents to engage as active participants and change the outcome, or are they spectators?"
(PRESENTED AS “MY OPINION” NOT A SOAPBOX SPEECH OR TELLING ANYONE WHAT TO DO!)
Well, in my opinion, which in addition to that AND $7.50 will get you my opinion and a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but at this moment, the average HPP resident is both a spectator AND COULD BE “active participants.”
While there are really two separate issues here, first the mailbox/deed restrictions issue in addition to the 5% of road dues being re-directed to non-road use, which, on the 5% issue, my opinion is that I think it is unwinnable for the Plaintiff as the bylaws do clearly allow for “up to 5%” to be transferred for non-road use and they really have no specificity as to what the 5% can be used for in any and all non-road matters. Again, that’s MY opinion.
As for the deed restrictions, I believe the matter will come down to a Judge and Jury deciding on just exactly what the meaning of the deed restrictions on the “only to be used for park, playground, recreational or school uses, and not for residential, commercial, or business use” matter.
However, having said that, one of Watumull’s defenses is “Res Judicata” which more or less is the principle that a cause of action may not be re-litigated once it has been judged on the merits, which can be argued, was already litigated in the 1977 lawsuit. Also, Watumull is more or less saying “this is YOUR problem. We’re done here.”
Now, on the other hand I think a possible “sway” argument for the Judge would be is the mailbox issue in the “best interests” of the general public regardless of a 50-year-old deed restriction. In that light, I COULD see it come down to ruling that a survey OF ALL RESIDENTS must be conducted.
I am slightly surprised that the Judge has not, to my knowledge, already requested that the USPS itself be brought into this matter. That may or may not happen at the Conference. There is one USPS Official shown on HPPOA’s “witness list” however.
Now, if say 2,000 plus HPP residents could get a letter writing campaign going to the Judge, for either say “YEAH – we want the mailboxes!” OR, on the other hand, letters condemning the project hands down, well that COULD be an effective way of HPP residents becoming “active participants” and inform the Judge that maybe “common sense” should prevail, or these mailboxes are the devil himself and should be ripped out and scrapped altogether.
At any event, I can’t imagine ANYONE not wanting the convenience of mail delivery that this mailbox matter brings. Especially at the equivalent pittance of cost over that of the way mail is sent to each HPP resident and what that costs them yearly. Nor do I really understand how and why this situation got to this point. Understanding that, grasping that and doing things that would never have allowed this whole situation culminating in this lawsuit to happen, while at the same time having “mailbox parks/clusters/I don’t have to drive to effing Pahoa or Keaau or Hilo to get my mail” would be a benefit for all.
Any time a matter like this goes to court, it becomes a “crap shoot!” Sometimes “7” come “11” Sometimes “snake eyes.”
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - Patricia - 02-09-2025
...will it enable HPP residents to engage as active participants and change the outcome, or are they spectators?
I would say, that depends on the HPP owners. And how many HPP Owners you are talking about.
Given the opportunity to read the court docs, or not, allows an HPP owner to make a choice, for themselves, as to whether they should question, or not, the behavior and actions of the HPPOA board. Will this make a difference as to the outcome of the lawsuit? Who knows? Right now, most HPP Owners do not even qualify as spectators. Right now, most HPP owners are walking in at the 4th act and are just trying to catch up and figure out what is going on.
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - TomK - 02-09-2025
"Right now, most HPP owners are walking in at the 4th act and are just trying to catch up and figure out what is going on."
I don't think you know what most HPP owners are doing or feeling, and I'm unaware they have voted for you as their spokesperson.
(02-08-2025, 08:40 PM)kalianna Wrote: You can save a lot of time by doing this.
I've never found that rotating the page 90 degrees has helped that much—unless the original page was rotated 90 degrees, which it wasn't. How it saves time is a subjective opinion. You spend time responding to people on your ignore list, so take the time to do whatever is needed. I don't see how it saves time, especially when you then go on to take a rotated screenshot and post it here. To me, that screams of someone with too much time on their hands.
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - My 2 cents - 02-09-2025
Thanks again to Patricia and Julie for posting the documents. I found Patricia’s website to be convenient, with all the documents there in the same place. If you are wanting to know what’s going on with these lawsuits and don’t want to wade through all of the detailed legalese, this is a good way to do that. They are SUMMARIES of the case written by the attorneys of the 3 parties, so they have tried to make them clear and concise, and you get a good picture from all angles. It’s still not the most pleasant way to spend a Sunday morning, but way easier than sifting through the previous docs.
Julie - ”…on the 5% issue, my opinion is that I think it is unwinnable for the Plaintiff as the bylaws do clearly allow for “up to 5%” to be transferred for non-road use and they really have no specificity as to what the 5% can be used for in any and all non-road matters. Again, that’s MY opinion.”
Bylaws have to have legal foundation or they are null and void. I can’t stress this enough. It’s amazing how many people don’t get this and think that they can make law in the boardroom. I believe Plaintiff has quoted another section of the bylaws that says that the road funds are for roads only. So there is a conflict within the bylaws. I wondered about this, and why she didn’t just go straight to the road fee judgment for foundation for her argument. That judgment is strictly for roads, nothing else, and to my knowledge there has never been any modification or additions to it. So MY opinion is that Defendants will have a difficult time showing legal foundation for the 5% rule.
”Now, if say 2,000 plus HPP residents could get a letter writing campaign going to the Judge….”
Is that legal? Aren’t judges supposed to rule on what’s presented in the courtroom and not outside influences? Trying to influence a jury is called tampering, wouldn’t it be the same for a judge? I’m asking in all seriousness.
I agree, going to court is a “crap shoot”. I think the judge is more likely to rule on points of law, which would favor the plaintiff and Watamull. It’s harder to guess what a jury might do.
RE: Be Carefull What You Wish For (update on HPPOA lawsuit) - TomK - 02-09-2025
(02-09-2025, 10:11 AM)My 2 cents Wrote: ”Now, if say 2,000 plus HPP residents could get a letter writing campaign going to the Judge….”
Is that legal? Aren’t judges supposed to rule on what’s presented in the courtroom and not outside influences? Trying to influence a jury is called tampering, wouldn’t it be the same for a judge? I’m asking in all seriousness.
Writing to a judge is perfectly legal, but no, you can't petition a judge and have them disregard the law. I can't believe the suggestion was even made, but there it is for all to see. Any letter to a judge will go through the court clerks, and the judge will likely never see any letter. It would be a complete waste of time.