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+--- Thread: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor (/showthread.php?tid=2683)
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Rob Tucker - 09-22-2008
Bob, you miss the point. You have to start somewhere. A county council can't be expected to solve the problems of the world in one fell swoop. It is capable of making a small start however. That's all it was and it is not impressive to me to slam the council for being willing to make one small step.
Even you and I are capable of making a small step in the direction we all know we need to go. Saying one little council bill fails because it doesn't solve all the world's problems is a bad excuse.
Punaweb moderator
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - james weatherford - 09-22-2008
Bob said, "The Bill had three reasons"...
...and then did not list the main reason that brought the Bill to be introduced:
the bags were killing livestock -- cattle, sheep, horses -- when they blew across the landscape and caught on brush and fences.
Over ride veto!
James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - JWFITZ - 09-22-2008
I think any given bit of legislation ought to be held to a level of accountability that the good it creates outweighs the pain in the butt stick in the eye that it also creates. While I'd love, as an ecologist, to see bags outlawed, no kidding! really! I'm embarrassed in the extreme that that people have the time on their hands to take on such a ridiculously unimportant, self indulgent. feel-good cause. It achieves near nothing ecologically, creates ill-sentiment, and paves a difficult road for when, not if, meaningful reform must happen.
Surely I'm not the one left arguing diplomacy?
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - DickWilson - 09-23-2008
Bob; I agree with all your points regarding other plastic items. It would be lovely if there was some way to restrict the excessive use of plastic packaging. Modern blister packs are a nightmare that needs to be addressed. Plastic grocery bag bans are one small step forward. Put it to a vote if we have to, but at least take what small gains can be made. Consumer pressure has caused some fast food franchises, such as Carl's Jr. to use cardboard packaging and cups for their take-out. Yes they still offer plastic straws, but no styrofoam packaging. Our local grocery store has responded well, by removing plastic grocery bags, reducing plastic bagging of produce and using paper wrapping for most butcher items. I firmly believe every little bit helps, and the bag ban is one step that can be taken. At least let it be voted on and have a chance to work. As far as causing some resentment, every effort to reduce pollution at the consumer level has always caused some resentment from those who feel like the world is a disposable economy.
dick wilson
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Rob Tucker - 09-23-2008
Aloha Dick,
I would predict that somewhere in our future, I don't know when, the items of excessive packaging you refer to will become subject to an EIS. Environmental Impact Studies have become accepted, though resented, in land development. My prediction is that the same or similar EIS process will become law on product development. It will have wide ranging impacts and the free marketers will scream about it. Eventually capitalism will collide head on with the environment. There will be concessions.
This is not my personal wish or hope it is just the future as I see it.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - DickWilson - 09-23-2008
Mahalo, Rob
I couldn't agree more. I remember cardboard packaging and it did the job just fine, put a picture on the package and get rid of the blister pack. I think an EIS on this type of packaging is inevitable, and frankly I would be glad to see it. Our landfills are full of this type of crap and on an island, anything that reduce the load on the landfills is desirable. People will hate it, but unless we want to live on top of our garbage, we have to take any steps we can to reduce trash. Not a popular idea, but inevitable. Just wish more folks would see that.
dick wilson
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Bob Orts - 09-23-2008
quote:Thanks,
Originally posted by JWFITZ
Bob, Bingo. Nice post.
I think people are getting so hung up on the emotions of the words "plastic bags" they are blinded and just can't understand the difference between the result from the legislation versus the danger of what doors were opened by that legislation.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - Bob Orts - 09-24-2008
quote:
Originally posted by DickWilson
I firmly believe every little bit helps, and the bag ban is one step that can be taken. At least let it be voted on and have a chance to work.
quote:
Originally posted by DickWilson
I firmly believe every little bit helps, and the bag ban is one step that can be taken. At least let it be voted on and have a chance to work.
I agree, let's have a plastic bag ban. I disagree with the legislation (bill) as written as the basis, because it's all BS.
If you let government enact popular legislation based on a bunch of cr*p, what's to stop them from enacting legislation that harms you based on cr*p? When you open a door to bad legislation because you like the results, don't whine and cry when a bull come roaring through and causes harm.
The bill is based on three factors:
1 Environmental. The main claim is it harms animals. What they are not mentioning is why are animals interacting with plastic bags?
2 Visible litter. On this I agree 100%. But what they didn’t mention is why it’s such visible litter?
3 Petroleum. Please this is about as asinine as anyone could come up with. The person who placed that in the bill needs to get fired.
So here’s my proposal for a plastic bag ban:
A Bill to ban thin film plastic bags
1. Plastic bags are migratory litter. Their very construction and design makes it difficult to contain.
2. There is no known effective way to control the migratory nature of plastic bags. Even when properly disposed of, the current available methods still offers ample opportunities for plastic bags to go from being contained to being free litter.
3. The County does not posses the means, knowledge or funding to effectively produce alternative methods of disposal.
4. When plastic bags become free litter in the environment, it has the potential to harm animal, plant and marine life or interfere with their life cycles.
5. The County has no recyling program for plastic bags and it's unlikely the County will have such a program.
6. Loose plastic bags are a detrimental eyesore that severely impacts the perception of the island and creates an almost third world look that can negatively impact tourism, an industry vital to the economic well being of Hawaii County.
For these stated reasons, and until such time as an effective and proven method of disposal is available, a ban shall become law within one year
How’s that for an honest start? No BS'ing the people.
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - DickWilson - 09-24-2008
Good first step. Include plastic used for blister packaging, styrofoam, a stiff fine for illegal disposal of any plastic bags in your possession, ie. leaving the damn things on the beach or in parking lots full of dirty diapers or dog droppings. beverage cans only in cardboard cartons, no plastic rings. .25 cent deposit on beverage cans. Just for starters.
dick wilson
RE: Bill 326: a ban on plastic bags - Acting Mayor - JWFITZ - 09-24-2008
That looks like a sensible first step.
The unintended consequences of advocacy and certainly all legislation needs to be given much much more thought than it often and currently is.