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+--- Thread: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? (/showthread.php?tid=12401)
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - gogould - 09-04-2013
I am saddened to hear that there is so much shoddy work to be seen with the present laws in place. It does make me ponder briefly what it would be without those laws.
There are some extremely competent people out there in the homeowner/builder category.
There are also some extremely incompetent people out there in the same category. There is nothing on earth that would convince the latter group that they and their unique ideas and their "that was the way my daddy taught me" ways are as incompetent as they really truly are.
Often their ways do work just fine but have nothing to do with industry standards. Zip cord in the walls actually works so does scabbed together 2X4's.
We all pay the price for individuals out there screwing up. Owner/builder allowance works just fine when there is a surrounding infrastructure that weeds out the knuckleheads. Is the that going to happen in a low tax laid back melting pot where east meets west?
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - peteadams - 09-06-2013
Of course the inspectors should inspect. In the number of county inspections we've had on our original house and now the addition, we've depended a lot on our own oversight of the building process rather than assuming either the inspectors or the tradesman will get everything right. We've had significant errors in both basic design (the house itself and the pipe layout in the slab) and some errors, large and small, by the trades. And, to be frank, errors that we have committed also. Nearly all the trade errors we experienced were done by assistants. We check and recheck work, found the problems and they were quickly fixed. As far as the inspections go, we have had detailed inspections and we have had drive-by inspections. There seems to be little oversight of the inspectors' activities.
Look, if I was running things I would have a structured management program for inspectors, beyond just hiring criteria. Regular training, continuing education, recertification testing and supervisory review of inspections would be a beginning. Inspectors would be expected to professionals working to high standards themselves and would expect high standards of the professionals and amateurs they work with. And, sure, I would certainly include provisions for amateurs to do their own work. As Rob pointed out, gluing two pieces of ABS together is not difficult. But I would have a strict inspection process that would have consequences for repeated poor work. As gogould pointed out, we need to weed out the knuckleheads. Tradesman who screw up would be reported to the licensing authorities. This would be an expected part of the inspection process. Professionals would be expected to perform like professionals. Amateurs who need repeated visits for errors would have escalating fees and an end point where they are required to have work completed by someone else. To this end, I would also increase the granularity of inspections to cover more details of the work, including perhaps unannounced drop in visits to check work in progress.
Naturally all this would require government funding, excellent management (both governmental and trades), maybe higher fees and, undoubtedly most important, people on all sides of the issue dedicated to the idea that competent building practices are more important than saving a few bucks.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - kalakoa - 09-06-2013
I realise the above is serious, but ... "reported to the licensing authorities" and "require government funding, excellent management ... higher fees" are really quite hilarious, especially considering that these features are already in place and accomplishing nothing.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - Carey - 09-06-2013
Pete, first you defend the county rules of not allowing one to do the work: "... Why should an inspector assume that a non-professional knows anything at all, anything, about installing electrical or plumbing according to code? ...".
A few threads later you highlight HOW the current systems did not work for you, and that you, in fact had to oversee BOTH the contractors & THE INSPECTORS: "We check and recheck work, found the problems and they were quickly fixed. As far as the inspections go, we have had detailed inspections and we have had drive-by inspections. There seems to be little oversight of the inspectors' activities."
I really do think that is a problem in this county, even you have highlighted that the home buyer/owner-builder MUST know as much, if not more, about the trades, because NEITHER the tradesman, nor the inspectors seem to know/care. However, the home owner-builder/ buyer is not allowed to do any of the electrical or plumbing work, because.... well, you also seem to state that is because no one expects the home owner-builder/buyer knows anything.... this is a big circular logic conundrum...
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - peteadams - 09-06-2013
Ha, I told Jane to expect the first response to be "pooh pooh, how idealistic" or some such. What I described seems to me to be simple, ordinary, basic management practices, implemented elsewhere all the time. If these "features" really are "in place" and you are being affected by the situation start making calls and go from there. If enough people start giving feedback up the chain...I know, I know, too idealistic. Easier grumble on a forum.
We did have one recent occasion to call a supervisor regarding an inspection and got satisfaction of the situation in a few hours, so I can't call our current inspection regime entirely fubar. But from that experience a little, and a lot from other experiences, we did acquire our impression that there is little oversight of the inspectors, much less vetting them regularly for their knowledge and practices.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - peteadams - 09-06-2013
"you, in fact had to oversee BOTH the contractors & THE INSPECTORS"
The analogy I have in mind is the current healthcare concept that you need to be on top of your own health situation and not abdicate responsibility to medical professionals (much less the insurance companies). Once I had to point out a lesion on a patient to an MD and he said "Oh yes, that's a cancer. I didn't notice." So yes, I think that homeowners need to know as much as they possibly can and oversee the work and inspections being performed on their homes. Is that circular? I both expect a lot at some levels and at the same time don't expect too much on others. So I "trust but verify" as noted earlier. I am part of the "system" and I expect to be part of making that system work for us. We've heard of a number of mainland owners who buy land sight unseen, contract a house with some dude and never check it out until completion. Then the horror stories begin. If you don't consider yourself part of the system, then one supposes that you are part of any resulting problems.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - Kapohocat - 09-08-2013
quote:
Originally posted by peteadams
Ha, I told Jane to expect the first response to be "pooh pooh, how idealistic" or some such. What I described seems to me to be simple, ordinary, basic management practices, implemented elsewhere all the time. If these "features" really are "in place" and you are being affected by the situation start making calls and go from there. If enough people start giving feedback up the chain...I know, I know, too idealistic. Easier grumble on a forum.
We did have one recent occasion to call a supervisor regarding an inspection and got satisfaction of the situation in a few hours, so I can't call our current inspection regime entirely fubar. But from that experience a little, and a lot from other experiences, we did acquire our impression that there is little oversight of the inspectors, much less vetting them regularly for their knowledge and practices.
There was a lot of giving feedback a couple of years ago when the new bldg codes were being adopted. LOTS of feedback from the trades, the architects, and the homeowners. Not much of it listened too or implemented.
"entirely fubar"? LOL.... no just about 80% fubar. I thought things would get a little better when Neil Erickson got into Bldg Dept but unfortunately (and Neil you know I like you if you are reading this), it in fact has not and has gotten worse. And moved the one decent inspector to the office.
PA - why dont you check and see how many of the inspectors are certified inspectors? or is your daddy having a construction company experience enough? (and it may have been if this person actually worked for the company previously as a hands on trade person but they didnt!)
As for Carey suggesting you have to know more and inspect the inspectors and contractors, then why not just F'ing do it yourself? So now we have come back full circle. Chicken and the egg.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - rainyjim - 09-08-2013
@ Kapohocat,
Yes,
+1.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - peteadams - 09-08-2013
"LOTS of feedback from the trades, the architects, and the homeowners. Not much of it listened too or implemented."
Why was that? What happened after the hearings were over? This is a political question and there is a political process to change it. Campaigns have been built on lesser issues. Aren't people whose livelihoods are in construction interested? But we're just ordinary people with our own interests and concerns that generally don't have much to do with construction. We're not trying to change the world here. As is often suggested to malihini on this forum and elsewhere I don't expect local folks, the county, or Hawai'i in general to conform to my desires. Life is short and we're just trying to get our construction accomplished, so I work for the best outcome for us, not only with the rules and regulations that we have to work under, but also with the people and culture that are here now. Never been unhappy with that approach but we are also willing to go to the mat if the situation calls for it. Whatever you think of this issue, it certainly doesn't rise to the nuttiness level of, for instance, the anti-GMO hysteria that the council is considering now.
"...then why not just F'ing do it yourself?"
Because we're not talking about you and your skills. We're talking about any knucklehead (great epithet!) walking up to the building department and saying they can do it themselves and demanding a permit. Some people are great at DIY, others need to be watched carefully. Don't think the building department can up front distinguish between them. And, for the record, even with a lot of DIY rural construction experience behind us, including building a house, there were many aspects of the plumbing and electrical work on our place here that I was more than happy to hand off to the professionals.
"...how many of the inspectors are certified inspectors?"
Wasn't aware there is any certification program for inspectors in the county. Is there? As someone who has been honored to be considered a professional in two different fields and coming from a science background where "standards" are a bedrock concept, I always experience a rather deep disappointment when I see or hear of professionals acting unprofessionally. And below them are those who sneak in a back door to get professional status. But it happens.
RE: Do it yourselfers are hamstrung? - Seeb - 09-08-2013
International (building) Codes Council has a certification program