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+--- Thread: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access (/showthread.php?tid=16163)
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - TomK - 07-12-2015
Pog,
Really good question. Please forgive me if I only get through a bit of this as astronomy students generally have to sit through three or four lectures at university to understand all this stuff, but think we're only talking about image quality and one or two other things, not more complicated economic and political stuff!
Optical and infrared astronomers measure something called seeing. The number is how small a point source (e.g., a star) appears. There are many factors that affect this number, but the smaller the number the better. More detail can be seen plus more light falls in a smaller spot on the detector, so good seeing helps see fainter objects (think magnifying glass and ants).
Seeing is affected by many things. Turbulence in the atmosphere is the biggest effect. However, local turbulence is also a big issue. Mauna Kea is great most of the time because trade winds can simply deflect around the mountain, but some of those winds also blow over the summit. Those winds create turbulence on the summit ridge. Often, those winds will also form a vortex after passing over the ridge, which means there's local turbulence to the east and west.
The topography of the summit region plays a massive part in where that local turbulence occurs as does the wind direction. For example, the CFHT, which is rather exposed but only a few hundred yards from UKIRT, may report seeing twice as bad as UKIRT is experiencing, because UKIRT is a little more sheltered. On the other hand, wind direction and speed means CHFT does better on occasion. On average, however, UKIRT does better, but then things get really complicated, because UKIRT generally works at longer wavelengths than CFHT.
So it's not simple, but basically the local differences are due to the unique turbulence each observatory experiences.
I hope that helps. I'm tired now, but let me know if I need to clarify anything.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - PaulW - 07-12-2015
"Either that or just shut up.."
There's dakine telling people to shut up again. Talking about respect.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - TomK - 07-12-2015
Pog,
While I think of it, I would recommend looking at this web page, especially during the winter when weather is a little more variable:
http://mkwc.ifa.hawaii.edu/current/
The page summarizes weather conditions at each observatory. Much of the time they're relatively consistent apart from wind speeds and humidity (that's the local topography effect), but check again on other days and you'll see some extraordinary differences. Sometimes, especially during the winter, those might be due to instruments failing (sometimes the anemometers get covered in ice and simply freeze up), that's just so you know they aren't always accurate. It's a tough environment up there and during bad storms it often requires interpreting all those numbers to figure out what's real and what isn't.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - dmbwest - 07-12-2015
"local turbulence is also a big issue" O.K., got it ....
I'm glad you said "atop Mauna Kea" ... Understood now .. Apologies for not reading in exact.
aloha,
pog
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - opihikao - 07-13-2015
quote:Well, well, well, the arrested woman is from Pahoa, and not part of the protestors/protectors group (she was yelling at the protestors too, earlier in the evening).
Originally posted by pahoated
Woman rammed a ranger truck at 2:30am this morning for denying her cultural rights - her culture being psycho-schizo whack job.
http://bigislandnow.com/2015/07/12/women-arrested-early-sunday-on-mauna-kea/
Women Arrested Early Sunday on Mauna Kea
"Aloha also means goodbye. Aloha!"
Still, the kanaka maoli protestors/protectors get the blame. Just like the "bullet hole". Gotta love it.
Hey, pahoated, she might have been searching for those Rainbow peeps! Wrong place, wrong time, wrong people. [
] (*Snipped - More at link; incl. picture)
The attorney general’s office reports that law enforcement personnel arrested a Pahoa woman for criminal property damage and obstruction early Sunday morning after she struck the vehicle of an Office of Mauna Kea Management ranger with her car.
Cynthia Marlin, 47, drove up to a ranger and two sheriffs at 2:30 a.m. at a checkpoint near the visitors center and argued with them for not allowing her to drive up to the summit. She then drove her car into the ranger’s vehicle, causing minor damage.
Marlin was arrested later that Sunday morning and was released after posting $500 bail.
No one was injured.
Marlin was a Libertarian candidate for lieutenant governor in the 2014 elections.
http://khon2.com/2015/07/12/motorist-arrested-in-attempt-to-get-to-mauna-kea-summit-2/
Our ohana knows the difference between right and wrong as we move forward. A trip to Mauna A Wakea does wonders for centering the na'au. We did have a good laugh about this story up there, knowing the blame was already misplaced (again).
Y'all have a nice day.
JMO.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - knieft - 07-13-2015
opihikao:
"We did have a good laugh about this story up there, knowing the blame was already misplaced (again)."
I had a good laugh at the irony (again). Perhaps the blame placed on TMT is misplaced?
Seriously, I think everyone saw that is was a nutty case from the report.
Cheers,
Kirt
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - opihikao - 07-13-2015
Aloha, knieft, TMT is unfortunately the platform for the sovereignty movement, and more. Yes, misplaced "blame", perhaps, but moreso, being "held hostage" in the Kingdom/Nation effort. Always said, this is not just about TMT.
Well, at least we are moving forward with "New Horizons", that arrives at Pluto tomorrow: (Apologies, slightly O/T, but interesting)
(*Snipped - More at link)
http://www.iflscience.com/space/everything-you-need-know-about-new-horizons-arriving-pluto-tomorrow
This is it. After a journey of more than nine years and 3 billion miles (4.8 billion kilometers), NASA's New Horizons spacecraft will finally arrive at Pluto tomorrow.
If you aren’t excited, you should be. For many people, this will be the only time that a world as significant as Pluto will slowly come into view and then be captured in images by a spacecraft. Only future generations that possibly explore other dwarf planets in the outer Solar System or perhaps planets beyond will experience anything quite like it.
JMO.
ETA: fix link
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - knieft - 07-13-2015
opihikao:
"Yes, misplaced 'blame', perhaps, but moreso, being 'held hostage' in the Kingdom/Nation effort."
Well, I guess I never thought of it as a hostage situation. I will have to rethink my rethinks about it all, but I guess that makes sense from a certain POV. Yet I am at a loss to see what the demands for the return of the hostage/TMT is? Has anyone made that explicit? If so, I must have missed it.
Tell me honestly, opihikao, is there anyone, anyone at all, up there that has considered simply backing down and walking away to regroup? Or is the group think so heavy in the we-will-save-something that no one can can even talk about an end game to the Mauna Kea TMT phase of the effort?
Does anyone talk about OHA beyond being disgruntled with them. Why don't you hold OHA hostage? Seriously.
dakine tells me I am delusional and to shut up or something will blow up in my face. Is that the end game? Can it really be that self-defeating?
Cheers,
Kirt
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - huwenfut - 07-13-2015
Problem is the police and DNLR guys are all related to the guys they're supposed to be arresting. A lot of them are also anti TMT. If you bring in the national guard you will have telescope nazis just like you had lava nazis earlier.
RE: Potential restrictions to Mauna Kea access - TomK - 07-13-2015
The summit access road has been re-opened at the VIS. However, the restrictions approved by BLNR are in place. Restricted access between 10pm to 4am and 4WD vehicles only above the VIS.