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+--- Thread: Haena beach access or the lack of it (/showthread.php?tid=5706)
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - missydog1 - 07-16-2009
To Bob,
I know I have seen a topic from some time ago where the owner was being told that there would be a public access easement along the cliffs. It was a condition of getting a permit. The land was not owned by State or County, just as you say. It was an easement, but not optional. I remember reading that the public policy is to maintain access along the cliffs for fishermen or other traditional practitioners. It discussed cliffs such as in HPP and said that in absence of beach that there would be access along the top of the cliffs. The idea being that it should be possible to traverse the shoreline.
There is a key difference between guaranteed access ALONG the shoreline and access cutting across private property to reach the shoreline, which is not provided at regular intervals on this island, even though ideally it would be.
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Bob Orts - 07-16-2009
quote:[
Originally posted by KathyH
There is a key difference between guaranteed access ALONG the shoreline and access cutting across private property to reach the shoreline, which is not provided at regular intervals on this island, even though ideally it would be.
]It is required []I'm sending you an email on this.
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Laughing_girl - 07-17-2009
quote:
Originally posted by rusty h
From my travels is seems that the people trashing up things are mostly locals....
...Peace
???
Only non-locals are hikers who pack out trash?
Bit of stereo typing there?
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Devany - 07-17-2009
Who says that there is a planned development there?
FYI, no chain link fences, just lava and bamboo walls/fences.
I dare anyone to pursue this... the lawyers are the only ones who will benefit. Go ahead, spend your $$$.
quote:
Originally posted by StillHope
quote:So,Bob,if Kimo wires forces the developers to get the access
... They said in no uncertain terms that if the County every attempted to use the law, they the developers would bring suit to force equitable enforcement on all land owners. ...
the developers will have him put the sign "Open access to the public"
on his chain link fence?[]
Aloha au i Hawai`i,
devany
www.myhawaiianhome.blogspot.com
www.eastbaypotters.blogspot.com
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Carey - 07-17-2009
All of the land that is in the "Shipman" estate is NOT all owned by W. H. Shipman, Ltd.
There are parcels within that are owned by the family members & listed on the tax records as such.... so although it may all seem like a large parcel, it is, in fact, many smaller parcels, some of with are held by private family members.... so, as I have posted before on this thread, I think most of the posters agree here, that private lands, owned by private individuals, their trusts (as many people now hold their land) and partnerships should be able to own their land, and not have to open their private lawns & drives to the public, which is what the 1st poster on this thread is proposing...
The access to along the shoreline, and the old GBR is not what the original poster was wanting, but was wanting to access the beach through a private drive, leading up to and directly in front of a private residence. I am pretty sure most of us can see that this would not be a situation that the government should be involved in... as that would lessen all of our private land ownership rights...
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - csgray - 07-17-2009
Devany,
Shipman Ltd. has been quite open about the fact that their long term plan for the area surrounding the beach is a Planned Unit Development along the lines of Kona side beach front development, complete with hotels, shopping areas, condos, and gated neighborhoods. I've spoken with several people who have seen the initial plans and it is very large in scale, eventually stretching almost from Keaau to the beach. Unless the politics of this island change drastically in the next 25 years they will have no trouble getting the necessary rezoning from Ag to residential/commercial resort. Particularly since their plans keep the development within a buffer of Shipman owned lands.
They are a profit making organization who think very much in the long term, they have plans for development of their properties (not just this one)that are on a 25 and 50 year time frame. As the single largest land holder in Puna they have tremendous control over the future of Puna, and not just because money talks. Even while staying within the current rules and regulations they could drastically change the feel of many parts of Puna by how and where they choose to develop their properties. If they were to be somehow forced to open up access over their now private road to the beach they would no longer have any personal incentive to leave things as they are.
A former coworker of mine is one of the people who has family permission to use their road and has seen the actual plans. She said the family has told her that this generation is in no hurry to develop the land, but have the plans are drawn up and ready to go when they decide to go for development. They are anticipating an increase in Japanese interest in retiring to this area and the planned development will be timed to coincide with that. I do not know how they derived their forecast, but they certainly have the money to do that kind of long term demographic and market research.
Shipman also has pretty elaborate long term plans for Keaau. Donating the land for the new Keaau schools was an early step in that long term plan.
Carol
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Carey - 07-17-2009
The plans are public, have been presented in meetings throughout Puna (we went to 2 after buying our house in Keaau). The Shipmans hired a developer late 05 (I think) that had investors ready & very willing to invest & develop many of the projects then. It was the first time the developer, had been told by a client that they didn't want to go fast, & to space out the plan over a couple of generations (so much for the fact that the company is in for the quick buck or for the megabuck.... They are looking at LONG term development & investing in the community that has been in their family for over 100 years.
I am fairly sure that one can make an appointment at the company headquarters in Keaau in order to view the plans. They were by no means doing this in private & they asked for community input early on (not just when required by the government). Sounds like a company that is responsible & responsive to the community...
Many of my neighbors have lived & worked on Shipman lands. They still own a major portion of the downtown Keaau.
Their influence has changed the face of Keaau more than once in the last 100 years.
Their family has lived through the devastating effects of 2 tsunamis on their property.
Family members have moved away for a potion of their lives, and returned home.
I will take my lead on how to react to this local family as my neighbors, many of whom have been here most of their lives (some are in their 90's). I appreciate what the company and the family have done for the community. I respect that the family members include their community in decisions that affect the larger community & I respect the fact that the family has remained a part of this community.
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Devany - 07-18-2009
Thanks Carey and Carol. I agree with Carey's attitude about respecting the family that not only helped develop the Hilo/Kea'au area, but whom also provided employment for vast numbers of citizens & continues to give back to the community in many ways.
If they do eventually decide to develop along the coast as stated,then of course they will have to provide access to the shoreline,just as it is on the West Coast. However, don't you think that since there are two family homes & a nene preserve directly on the beach and cove that it is likely they will not be developing that specific area? Carey, since you have actually seen the plans, maybe you can shed some light on that. It is interesting because on the map (UH map by Bier), just next to Ha'ena (also clearly noted on the map)the Shipman's private lake also shows up next to "Kea'au Ranch", is that where the homes are or is it another property? If you follow their private road all the way to the coast, then there is a "c" shaped road where it says Kea'au Ranch. It is showing up with a yellow dot, indicating a town. I do know that the Shimpan's used much of their land for grazing cattle, so maybe that is why it is called Kea'au Ranch??? I never noticed the town indication before. It is unclear where the line is between the Shipman Estate and the Mauna Loa Property. It seems like it would make a lot more sense to develop between Leleiwi Point and Papua'a Bay (closer to Hilo and easier to develop road access.)
Furthermore, the whole concept of a Kona Style Resort Development here seems fairly ludicrous to me, now or in the foreseeable future. While speculators may bank on such things, actually getting them done here is another story. The people of Hilo and Puna are far too against any change like that(or even far smaller changes like Pahoa's Burger King!)And then there is of course the rain, the one lingering factor that is a spoiler when it comes to tourism. We are never going to draw large numbers of big dollar tourists on this side of the island because of the rain. Lest we not forget the Tsunami issue, with all of that land low lying and in the path of Tsunamis. As the experts say, we are well over due for another big one and whenever that hits, it will be a red flag to any development in that area, other than what we have now, medium income homes for retirees that are willing to take their chances.
While we do draw numbers of tourists to the area, they are of a different sort than would be staying at high end resorts. They are people who are interested in the Volcano, culture, adventure sports, flora and fauna of our area. We don't have miles of white sand beaches and endless sunny days here for golf, tennis and sun worshipers. Even the Emperor of Japan did not care to come to Hilo last week. Actually, I, like many thing that is a good thing. I like our area just the way it is and I do not think that anyone who wants to turn it into Kona II is going to have even a remote chance over here... thanks be to the Goddess.
Aloha au i Hawai`i,
devany
www.myhawaiianhome.blogspot.com
www.eastbaypotters.blogspot.com
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - csgray - 07-18-2009
Devany,
It doesn't matter if anyone else thinks the idea is financially feasible or likely to work, the plans exist and the owners of the land have the money to make it happen if or when they choose to. The very large population on Oahu who desire to retire to the Big Island in the next 20 years and have plenty of equity in very expensive homes on Oahu could well provide the population needed to buy up the residential sections of the planned development for this area.
The Shipman organization has been here for over a century and have, as Carey pointed out, a deep well of good will with long term residents to draw on when they want to put their plans in play. Not to mention excellent access to elected and appointed officials when they need it. This is a family with a very long track record of making what they want happen in this community, and the people who were sign waving about the Pahoa BK long after the permits were issued are not going to have the organizational skills or clout to stop them.
Carol
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Bullwinkle - 07-18-2009
"The very large population on Oahu who desire to retire to the Big Island in the next 20 years and have plenty of equity in very expensive homes on Oahu could well provide the population needed to buy up the residential sections of the planned development for this area."
Bingo.... this rather than mainland investment will drive the next 20 years of development as mainland financials will be in the dump for years to come. (off topic but the biz lenders are imploding this week over there, just the latest round of the melt down)
The best thing about the Shipmans' is that they do have a sense of responsibility as well as rights when it comes to land ownership. I am looking forward to their projects, so would Puna if the leaders follow wise counsel. Local developers are always more in tune than carpetbagger developers. makes a difference if one expects to actually be near the development for the rest of the generations. Rather than taking the money and running.
My 2 cents - Aloha