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+--- Thread: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT (/showthread.php?tid=17305)
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - PaulW - 06-23-2016
The telescopes can look back 13,000,000,000 years but dakine only wants to look back 123 years.
Yeah, the heavens can wait, can't possibly be anything interesting out there, like an asteroid headed straight for us or maybe a civilization one billion years ahead of us. Let's roll some rocks instead.
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - kalakoa - 06-23-2016
the overthrow of 1893 remains current and there are bodies of people that remain tied to it and accountable
Practical reality remains: US Government can't be held accountable if it doesn't want.
Not to break out the tired old argument, but: we can't even manage to hold County responsible for allowing the "privately owned road" fiasco, and that problem is less than 100 years old.
Precedent has been set: this isn't really the "first world", and you're on your own.
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - Eric1600 - 06-23-2016
quote:
Originally posted by dakine
What's so wrong in insisting that we clean up our mess before we start playing more games? Really man, enough is enough. The heavens can wait, they aren't going anywhere, whatever we see there today we'll see tomorrow and there are plenty of technological wonders to awe us all.
First off, what specific "mess" are you cleaning up by stopping the TMT?
Secondly, had we chose to "just wait" for astronomy we would not have discovered many of the planet wide processes that we understand today that impact our lives, like global warming. Or that wiped out the dinosaurs. There's no game to play here. Nothing has helped raise global awareness more than humans who see how vast the universe is and how precious and unique our planet is. Were you not around when Hubble's first clear images were made public? The TMT is 13x more powerful. Nothing we can invent here on Earth comes close to rivaling the massive and awesome things that await us to see out there.
If you're going to be against a telescope, please don't bother with the Earth First argument because it's easy to demonstrate how our new knowledge of the universe has shaped our lives and will continue to do so.
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 06-23-2016
I imagine some would like to go back to a time before Pa`ao made landfall ... the overthrow of 1893 remains current and there are bodies of people that remain tied to it and accountable.
When I lived on Maui, and a new building was to be named "Kamehameha" the descendants of Kalanikupule had no problem suggesting we would be better off back in the 1790's when their relative was chief. By your argument dakine, that an overthrow remain current and that there are bodies of people tied to it, we would need to go back another 100 years prior to 1893 for some Native Hawaiians now living on Maui. There are probably other, even earlier examples if you asked around.
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 06-23-2016
I was suggesting going back a lot further than that. You might want to do a little research on Pa`ao and Waha`ula
So how do you suggest reinstating a Hawaiian Kingdom or Hawaiian Nation from the time you propose, 1275 A.D.?
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 06-23-2016
Well, then I'm not sure what you meant by:
we would need to go back another 100 years prior to 1893 for some Native Hawaiians now living on Maui
HOTPE - I was suggesting going back a lot further than that. You might want to do a little research on Pa`ao and Waha`ula
From: http://hl-128-171-57-22.library.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/19256/1/AP-v30n1-19-56.pdf
Waha'ula is an important site for several reasons, not the least of which lies in its having been identified in oral histories as the setting for the first luakini (human sacrificial temple) in the Hawaiian Islands, purportedly established by the emigrant Tahitian priest Pa`ao around A.D. 1275.
and consider that those who can trace their lineage back before them would long to return to the way things were before the kapu system was imposed
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - opihikao - 06-23-2016
Aloha ahiahi, all. Being that the title of this thread is about Hawaiians in support of TMT, thought I'd share a recent memory on this subject.
This is the eve of the "final stand off" on Mauna Kea one year ago. When thinking about what video to share with you all, there were too many to choose from. Here is a list of various camera positions, and raw news footage, for copius free time viewing.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=TMT+Mauna+Kea%2C+June+24%2C+2015
Again, Big Island Video News deserves recognition in the coverage, as does Mileka Lincoln, of Hawaii News Now (the raw footage really shows what transpired).
In the line that I stood in for 4-1/2 hours, "The Kupuna line" (first line, don't laugh), many of us were not against the TMT per se, nor against science in any form. We were standing for the process being flawed (again), our cultural rights being ignored (again), and basically, "enough is enough". (We won't talk about Pohakuloa, which is another big issue, never mind Na'i Aupuni/Kana'ioluwalu/Kau Inoa "Tribe recognition" either. Ugh.)
Looking at my cousin (younger), one of the lead DLNR officers, on the other side of the "line" (after greeting each other at 3:45am), we smiled at each other knowing the truth; balance must be found.
The night before was all preparation, on both sides. It was not adversarial at all. In fact, Kekoa Kaluhiwa, First Deputy-DLNR, was part of the protectors/protestors midnight discussion. The exchange of information, and planning was very good. (You will see him crying at the first line, and asking for forgiveness in one of the videos; along with the lead DLNR Officer at the end of the day when they turned around). Pitting Hawaiians against Hawaiians is a basic "MO", however, the respect for each other was always present.
In closing, there is one video that comes very close to expressing the true "mana" present that day. From both sides. Mahalo ke Akua, e na Aumakua, e na Kupuna.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7EQ2--BA0A
Apologies for the long post, I digress. Just want to share personal perspective that led us to this point. Many Hawaiians support TMT, and science as a whole, including some protectors/protestors. It is the damn system and/or politics, that continues to ignore the very promises made, and continues to erode the confidence in the "Occupier's (USA)" once held.
Jumping off my soap box, mahalo for your indulgence, and yes, beating a dead horse seems to be my forte. Going back to focus on those deadlines set by Judge Amano, and the next scheduled hearing.
Have a good evening all, tomorrow is another day. Mahalo again for the good discussion.
JMO.
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 06-23-2016
No matter how you try to suggest that I own that, as if I was saying anyone should consider any time before 1893, I am sorry it's all yours. I have never said as much.
You provided a very specific reason for 1893.
I pointed out your same reason applies to periods earlier than that date as well.
I'm not playing a game, I'm making an observation.
“There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them.”
-Joseph Brodsky
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - opihikao - 06-23-2016
Of interest, perhaps, in fairness, "Insights on PBS Hawaii", hosts Richard Ha, Paul Coleman, John Osorio, and Kealoha Pisciotta on the topic of "Should TMT Be Built". Good information, and debate/discussion.
(Old tape from last year, but still pertinent):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMKgNSb1cE0
They also address, right up front, OHA "recinding support" of the TMT (not going so far as to say "against"; semantics). What does OHA say today, given the current status of the Contested Case Hearing (#2)? Waiting for a reply to my written inquiry, and will advise when/if a response is received. OHA has a vested interest in this project, they represent all Hawaiian beneficiaries, and needs to be transparent about their position. Fiduciary responsibilities, and all that...SMH.
At least it's an election year, and if more Hawaiians would vote, their voices will be heard (even if they don't believe in the US law, etc.). For the record, "Hawaiian nationals" included not only "koko" (blood), but many other nationalities. (O/T)
Further, the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom is not a new issue; Mauna Kea and TMT brought it all to a head...again.
Now the question lies in how to move forward, without any more manipulation of the laws (US laws), the subsequent legal wrangling, and make good on promises made decades ago when we became a State ("Crown lands", not "Ceded" to some), more recently, the Master Lease for Mauna Kea.
Conservation Land designation, again, has certain restrictions and requirements under the law, and the leases. Period. OK, pau beating three dead horses in one post.
Kaulana Na Pua (*Can you pick out which Hawaiians are for TMT, and which are against? They are there. Yet, they come together for the common good. That is being Hawaiian.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhibLQFebpQ
Going to make SPAM musubi. (These kids are eating me out of house and home![xx(] Bless their hearts...Na pua o Hawai'i.)
Good night. JMO.
RE: Native Hawaiians in support of TMT - TomK - 06-23-2016
Eric1600 wrote:
"Secondly, had we chose to "just wait" for astronomy we would not have discovered many of the planet wide processes that we understand today that impact our lives, like global warming. Or that wiped out the dinosaurs. There's no game to play here. Nothing has helped raise global awareness more than humans who see how vast the universe is and how precious and unique our planet is. Were you not around when Hubble's first clear images were made public? The TMT is 13x more powerful. Nothing we can invent here on Earth comes close to rivaling the massive and awesome things that await us to see out there."
In addition, the TMT wants to be operational during the limited operational lifetime of the JWST. Those two observatories operating simultaneously are a natural synergy that will lead to many more discoveries than if they don't. The statement that the heavens can wait is just another argument from those that don't understand or support astronomy and science. The launch of the JWST is the leading reason why the TMT has given the state a deadline.
ETA: Fixed a typo.