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+--- Thread: Speed traps on Hwy 130 (/showthread.php?tid=2485)
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - Bob Orts - 08-13-2008
Since I'm a traffic engineer idiot, I rely upon the expert. I made a quick call to a local mainland traffic engineer about these roundabouts.
1. Roundabouts have a long history of effectively and efficiently moving traffic at meeting of roads. They absolutely improve safety because T-bones and head-ons are virtually eliminated. They remove problems related to U-turns and turning obstructions. Overall he said roundabouts absolutely improves traffic when used.
2. Roundabouts are nothing but a type of traffic control. Just like traffic lights or a stop sign may or may not be appropriate at a specific intersection; just like a yield signs may or may not be appropriate at a specific location; just like a turn or merge lane may or may not be appropriate for a specific location; just like 2, 3, 6 or fifty lanes may or may not be appropriate at a specific location. And, just like one location may have completely different traffic and safety issues from an intersection a short distance away.
He said it's a bit naive to think roundabout should be automatically used because of their positives without ever studying the traffic patterns, issues, safety, flow rate, congestion, and those specific items where roundabout are never recommended. So can anyone point me to the traffic engineer study conducted at any of the intersections so I can ask his opinion? I'm sure nobody is advocating for or against roundabouts at a specific location in Puna based only on what worked at a specific location in North Boondock.
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - Kelena - 08-13-2008
Thanks, Bob. We can always count on you to research the facts.
I love the primitive roads in HPP and am very disappointed that they are going to pave many of them, including my street. The primitive roads keep traffic speeds low and scare away all the right people (who weren't scared away by something else previously). On the mainroads out of HPP, people fly. It's a shame. You see bicyclists, pedestrians, children....and the cars are just flying by, imperiling those who are just sauntering down the road.
Our experience in Southern California echoes that of Oahu: If you build it, more cars will come. The easier you make it for drivers, the more cars on the road there will be until you are back where you began: crowded thoroughfares. Then you have to repeat the process. Nothing is improved and eventually everything is paved and you lose the natural beauty that brought you there in the first place. At some point we will have to let go of this notion that every person on earth should have a car and be able to go anywhere they want to in it. The whole idea that we need another fuel for these cars is ridiculous. Mass transit is the answer. Doing it on an island may be difficult, but if it is approached on a national scale, it will be more feasible. We need a comprehensive approach from the national level and funds from that level as well. Put the railroad back on railroad. And build stations where people can park and easily be out of the rain. Build a really comfortable form of mass transit that goes all around the island, and often.
As for roundabouts, anything is better than the death dash that takes place when you are pulling on to 130 from HPP. The intersection of 130 and Ainaloa has more ghosts than a civil war battlefield. Anything that is done there will be an improvement. The problem, if there is one, is cultural I think. Roundabouts work in England because of the English. Put one in China and they will manage to kill each other. In Hawaii, in one roundabout you have the following: 1) A mainlander who really really really wants to get where he is going and wants to get there fast, 2) One of the few remaining local ladies, who wants to take in the scenery, 3) An over compensating and angry young man in a rice rocket, and 4) Someone high on meth who hasn't had a driver's license in years. And then they merge. Shudder. So I agree with the above -- what works in one place won't necessarily work in another.
Here is what I would do if I were king of the island: 1) Build a train all around the island and forbid cars to travel on the belt road, except for emergencies. You have a guy at a kiosk enforcing this. Five kiosks around the isle. 2) Have checkpoints and make sure that every unregistered car and unlicensed driver is yanked off the road, 3) Shave ice for everybody!
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - DanielP - 08-13-2008
Dr J.
Then "Google" "roundabout problems". Tons of info.
Looks like roundabouts address mainly intersection problems, like the one that Kapohocat suggested. I like that one.
Balanced traffic flow is a major issue in the way a roundabout functions.
Seems to me that 90% of 130's traffic is thru traffic; not balanced.
There is intersection after intersection with problems. If the intersections could be consolidated with secondary connector roads within the subdivisions it might work better.
A couple of metering lights to interupt the flow seems like a quick, cheap and effective approach to me. Does anyone have an opinion on this. I feel so lonely.
Dan
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - james weatherford - 08-13-2008
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Orts
can anyone point me to the traffic engineer study conducted at any of the intersections
Well done, Bob, thanks!
A study? Not to my knowledge has the DOT ever responded to the many requests for just that.
The point about roundabouts being good, but not necessarily for each and every intersection is right. Hope my passion for them has not left the impression that is what I am talking about.
Not to be one for conspiracy theories, but...
my as-yet incomplete research on the matter (only 24 hrs in each day!) indicates that ONE company provides ALL of the traffic signal lights on this island. That has a rotten smell to it ...
Can somebody run assist for me on this one?
James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - james weatherford - 08-13-2008
quote:
Originally posted by DanielP
"roundabout problems"... 130's traffic is thru traffic
Have you ever tried to turn into or turn out of HPP onto 130?
Most of the traffic between Ainaloa and Keaau, where congestion is and safety is not, comes out of HPP and a lot from Orchidland.
Simple population numbers indicate that the Pahoa - Keaau Road traffic is NOT most thru traffic -- the populations of Ainaloa, Orchidland, and HPP dwarf the rest of Puna's population.
James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - Guest - 08-13-2008
quote:You got me to laugh on this one Dr. W.
Originally posted by james weatherford
...
Not to be one for conspiracy theories, but...
my as-yet incomplete research on the matter (only 24 hrs in each day!) indicates that ONE company provides ALL of the traffic signal lights on this island. That has a rotten smell to it ...
Can somebody run assist for me on this one?...
Do you think the demand for traffic lights is so great here on this island that it warrants more then one company?
-------
blog
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - james weatherford - 08-13-2008
quote:
Originally posted by gtill
how many of the roundabouts do you propose for 130 to Pahoa?
What I propose is that an objective comparison be made for intersection control at every intersection from Kahakai to Shower.
Certainly, it is unlikely that each and every one will be suited for and need a roundabout. Many will not need any control other than speed, which needs to be lowered to 45MPH for safety.
Priorities: Safety. Traffic flow. Fuel efficiency. Cost of construction and operation.
James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - gtill - 08-13-2008
So what Dr W, now they're not such a good idea. Previously they were the answer to 130 problems last I heard, you've been bugging the traffic engineers for them , now you've changed? Also, how many had you proposed total?
As to the single source for stoplights, for one if it screws up within warrantee you get it fixed. Afterwards he will still have parts and possibly even service calls. Plus he mght keep a large stock of em on hand for immediate sale. going online or even Oahu willtake time and you need it now (accident damage). Plus aren't we supposed to be buying locally.
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - james weatherford - 08-13-2008
quote:
Originally posted by gtill
So what Dr W, now they're not such a good idea. Previously they were the answer to 130 problems last I heard, you've been bugging the traffic engineers for them , now you've changed? Also, how many had you proposed total?
As to the single source for stoplights, for one if it screws up within warrantee you get it fixed. Afterwards he will still have parts and possibly even service calls. Plus he mght keep a large stock of em on hand for immediate sale. going online or even Oahu willtake time and you need it now (accident damage). Plus aren't we supposed to be buying locally.
No, gtill, you (to put it mildly) misrepresent what I said.
see the new topic
James Weatherford, Ph.D.
15-1888 Hialoa
Hawaiian Paradise Park
RE: Speed traps on Hwy 130 - DanielP - 08-13-2008
Dr J,
Often I have experienced the problems turning out of HPP onto 130.
It sucks! I would like to see a stop-gap solution while a long term solution is studied. Hence, the light idea.
When I say that roundabouts require "balanced flow", I mean at each intersection. At each intersection on 130 Most of the traffic is thru traffic.
It doesn't sound like you have given fair study to the downsides of roundabouts.
Aloha, Dan