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+--- Thread: Haena beach access or the lack of it (/showthread.php?tid=5706)
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Rob Tucker - 07-18-2009
I agree with Carol on the Shipman operations and position with one exception. My perception is that they do not have the cash to do anywhere near the scope of the planning they have in place.
Like most large land operations they are land rich and cash poor. Nothing unusual about this. Their development intentions will have to pass scrutiny with the lenders just as your or mine would. So the economic times affect them too.
My own family has 30,000 acres in Wyoming since the 1800's. That is a lot of dirt. Doesn't have them rolling in cash. Has them up to their eyeballs in responsibilities.
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - csgray - 07-18-2009
I think the funding issues are why Shipman development tends to be in increments. They have a very large scale and ambitious long term set of plans, but will do it in staged pieces rather than one fell swoop. Doing it in pieces means they don't need the same scale of financing as if they tried to do it all at once. I think we will see some of these plans come to pass in our lifetime, and our children and grandchildren will see the rest.
Carol
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Rob Tucker - 07-18-2009
You are right Carol. It will be incremental as finances and demographics allow.
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Carey - 07-18-2009
Actually, at the development meetings three years ago, the planned project coordinator had stated that they had investors that were willing, wanting to, and able to fund many of the development plans post haste, but the Shipman company had wanted to spread this development out.
This meeting was even in Punaweb, so it was not under any of our radars at the time.
http://www.punaweb.org/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1776
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Devany - 07-18-2009
Well, I guess we can sit back and wait and see then. However, I would place money on it that we will not see any resorts going in at least the next 10-15 years, if ever.
However, most people I know that have retired recently (other than the ones that moved here from the mainland)did so by moving from Hilo to Oahu, simply because of lack of an even halfway decent hospital here and an even bigger lack of diagnostic equipment and doctors, especially specialists which are needed for the aged. And again, I believe the rain will be a factor for many reasons. I think I did say in my post that there will still be a need for mid level retirement homes, but I just do not see big "Kona Style" resorts going in, as was stated in the first posts about the Shipman Plan. Gated communities, maybe.
Aloha au i Hawai`i,
devany
www.myhawaiianhome.blogspot.com
www.eastbaypotters.blogspot.com
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Laughing_girl - 07-18-2009
Just a thought but what if Shipman provided a very limited amount of "passes" for each day or 1 day a week, even 2 Saturdays a month for the general public? When I say limited I mean like 1-5 passes.
The MKBH, the Mauna Lani, and the Hilton, to name a few, limits the amount of parking available to the general public for the beaches and where that access is for shoreline (beaches) that abut their property and it seems to work out fairly amicably. They are also private property to the shoreline.
I also feel that although the Shipman area may be all hearts and flowers on conservation and not developement at this moment, that can easily change with a change of guard, or even a change in economics - good or bad.
Look at the Ruddles family and the large portion of land between the end of Puako beach Dr and the old Ritz Carlton. The Ruddles family intention was to keep it undeveloped and within their family as it had been for generations, and economics (actually heritance taxes in this case) changed that.
When Nansay bought it from Signal, the only thing that actually stopped them dead in their tracks was bankruptcy. If there hadnt been that, that area would be developed and not accesible to the general public's benefit. The Ruddles Family was always very nice, and if you walked the shoreline, they often invited you to join in their pau hana celebrations! There was never a "GET OFF THE EDGE OF MY PROPERTY" dialouge... ('cept maybe the revenuers... hahah). I know for a fact, that although Nansay did get one asphalt road in from the back end of Puako to the Petroglyphs area, they patrolled it so no one who lived in Puako and worked at the Mauna Lani's various developements could ride their bicycles to work. Bicycles... on pavement.... ! We are talking about maybe 10-15 people per week!
The developement of that area is again in progress by Bridge Aina Lea LLC.
Here's a very brief history - there are actual many many pages of COH Plan Dept documents available.
http://www.environment-hawaii.org/archives_summary.php?id=1506_0_36_0_M
2 Decades and Counting: Golf ‘Villages’ At Puako Are Still a Work in Progress (2002 article)
In the two decades since development was first proposed for some 3,000 acres inland of Puako Bay on the western Kohala coast of the Big Island, plans have changed frequently – and radically.
Initial plans, put forward in the late 1980s by then-owner Signal Puako (held by the Signal Oil Company), called for development of the “Puako Residential Golf Community – six “villages” with a total of 2,658 housing units (both large-lot single family dwellings and apartments), built around as many as six 18-hole golf courses. An environmental assessment prepared for the project described it as a “complete support community that would provide housing at affordable prices for employees of the various resorts that are being proposed on the Kona coast.”
Hardly was the ink dry on the Land Use Commission approval of the plan, in 1989, when Signal Puako sold a 90 percent interest in the land to a Japanese company, Nansay Hawai`i in May 1990. Within a year, Nansay was back before the LUC, seeking an amendment to the LUC decision, which had redistricted a core area of 1,060 acres into the Urban district from the Agriculture district. Nansay sought to revise “the proposed project from a support community with onsite affordable housing to an upscale residential community providing affordable housing offsite.”
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Carey - 07-18-2009
When you talk to old time Kona coffee growers, you will find that none of them envisioned the Waikaloa Resort area, nor any of the Kona growth that has happen over the last few decades (fifty years ago, the east side was the vacation side, with the hotels & such, the west side after WWII had more of the reputation that Puna has today.
In the 80's, Kalapana was to be the big resort area on this island, with the beautiful black sand beaches & all... several resorts were proposed & had massive funding & all, and many plans were in place.... Pele did have the final say on those plans....
Oh, and the old village of Keeau? That was largely taken out when the area subsided after the 1868 Kau earthquake... That subsidence also changed the stream & ponds. And the the private driveway goes to the private homes, between the private ponds, part of the nene sanctuary..
As to Passes - Again, why would anyone even suggest a family would issue passes so that people can park on the families drive & walk on their lawns? Are you willing to allow people you do not know, even those with passes, to use your private property?
Each of us online has more money than some in Puna, so that reasoning that the Shipmans have a lot of money would state that people should be able to park on our driveway & walk on our lawn including those with property behind ours - there are many property owners that have land that backs up state & county lands, should they also be required to allow people to pass through their property?
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - missydog1 - 07-18-2009
Thank you Carey and LaughingGirl and all others giving perspective on the history with these plans.
LG, very interesting about Puako, all news to me. I think that the upper income residential over there is over built now due to Waikoloa Beach, Mauna Lani (including Mauna Lani 49 Black Sand, Mauna Lani Point, and Pauo`a Beach as well as Mauna Lani Resort condos), and Mauna Kea Resort both SFR and condos.
The vacation rental rates are tanking and so are the prices. At some point there will be a recovery but new golf courses and homes are simply not needed over there right now due to inventory.
While I understand that the Shipman House is near Haena Beach, it does seem like the white sand beach and inlet would be THE DRAW, and if they developed it they would almost have to rethink their personal lifestyle on that land. Hard to have the cake and eat it, I would think.
Devany, I agree with the others there is a big market of Oahu folks moving to Hilo side. All three of my real estate agents over the years have mentioned this trend. While there are people in Hilo who go to Oahu as they age, without doubt, such as the owner of my former house in Hilo, who went to senior housing on Oahu - there is also a "get out of the rat race" segment of Oahu. In fact many vacants lots around Hilo and Puna are owned by people on Oahu, some bought for investment but others bought for future moves.
As for visitors, again I disagree. There are more and more people attracted to the expensive (relatively) rentals on Kaloli Point and at Kapoho Beach Lots. The lack of good swimming (that's if you feel Kapoho water isn't clean enough) - is huge. Many many people want to stay in hotels in Hilo and ask WHY we only have run down hotels. There is a market for a resort hotel at this point, I have no doubt.
As for the rain, it is well known already that the Puna coastline is generally sunny in contrast to Hilo and even north of Hilo, and people are not afraid to book on the Puna coast these days.
Some of the people who come to Puna are resort haters, but others are staying at resorts to visit the west side and ask about resorts for their portion of stay on the east side, only to find there aren't any.
I remember when Waikoloa was extremely low key, and my memory only goes back 12 years. No doubt it was a lot quieter going a bit farther back. The whole Kohala coast has exploded the last several years. They built and people came.
The VNP is the single greatest attraction on this island and many visitors do not come for the beaches, but they book the west side resorts because they are main stream and there are no other resort choices. Then they are shocked at the length of the drive. Provide a place on the east side that travel agents can book as suppliers, and they will do it.
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - missydog1 - 07-18-2009
PS. Re the tsunami zone issue.
Every resort on the Kohala coast is in a tsunami evacuation zone. The signs are posted. The last big quake was off Puako and that coast is not immune to tsunamis. Granted that land drops are more common on the Puna coast, so perhaps it would be wiser to do a bungalow /hale type resort like Kona Village rather than a concrete hotel. Carey, what did the plans call for? A traditional hotel? They could also build high like in Kapoho Vacationland. A few of the Kohala hotels are built upslope of the beach, Hapuna and also the Fairmont.
RE: Haena beach access or the lack of it - Bullwinkle - 07-18-2009
Hana Hotel on Maui got it right, that same concept could do well here
http://www.hotelhanamaui.com/