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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - lisa - 08-01-2019
To answer your earlier question, at about the 3 minute mark at the above link with young Damien Marley, a person at the mike announces "we are the water protectors."
quote:
Originally posted by TomK
lisa - you're preaching to the choir!
Wish I could follow his dad's advice ... cuz everything might not be all right.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 08-01-2019
Yes, but as I said, it's an argument that keeps coming up and is completely untrue. The protesters have said a lot of things that aren't true and it and it will continue.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 08-01-2019
PS. I should add this is why I'm very pleased to see the approach Kaimana has now taken on this thread. He or she seems to be against the TMT and doubt his or her thoughts will change, but Kaimana is asking questions and trying to be armed with facts rather than baseless claims, and think this is something everyone should strive for.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - TomK - 08-01-2019
An open letter via the American Astronomical Society.
https://aas.org/posts/letter/2019/07/question-astronomy-and-maunakea
The Question of Astronomy and Maunakea
"The astronomical community is torn by the debate about whether the Thirty Meter Telescope (TMT) should be built on Maunakea. Even inside my own head I am torn. As a human being, I feel sorrow for the historical mistreatment of indigenous Hawaiians, and as an astronomer I hope for a peaceful outcome that gives Hawaiians and other inhabitants of planet Earth an extraordinary new view of our universe.
At the heart of the matter is the question of who gets to decide what happens. There are many stakeholders. The protesters represent a group that disagrees with the outcome of a legal and political process in the state of Hawai'i. We can wholeheartedly support their right to disagree, whether or not we agree with their position. We can expect the government of Hawai'i to enforce their laws and their court decisions in a way that is respectful and peaceful. We can expect the decision process to be transparent, that the government and the TMT Corporation will be held accountable to all of their promises, and that ultimately the result will reflect the will of the majority of people who live and work in Hawai'i. And we can hope that no one - not protesters exercising their freedom of speech, not police officers doing their jobs, not observatory workers laboring at the mountain site - is hurt.
Hawai'i is home to people of many cultures and traditions, including people brought to the islands involuntarily and people escaping injustice. But it is impossible to divine the majority opinion of any population simply by listening to posts on social media. Social media is a significant power leveler and has the capacity to amplify individual voices, including those of people monitoring events on the scene and those of others commenting from afar. It can also be a source of misinformation, group-think, and redirection. I am discouraged by the ease with which social media posts, strategically placed, can polarize our conversations.
There are many people affected by the situation in Hawai'i whom you might also be concerned about: indigenous Hawaiians who support the TMT, all of the observatory workers experiencing stress and disruption regardless of their opinion about TMT construction, Hawaiians hoping for a better future for their families and for safety for all involved. My heart goes out to all of them.
It is important for members of the AAS to remember that most of us do not have the same stake in this decision as Hawaiians do. This debate is not just about astronomy and the research careers of us astronomers. It is about the islands' economy, the kinds of jobs and careers that are available, and the educational opportunities for the islands' children. It's about Hawaiian culture and the preservation of indigenous knowledge, languages, histories, and traditions that go back centuries. It's about the environment, the safe use of the mountain, and access to sacred sites. It's about promises broken and the question of whether promises made today will be kept in the future or forgotten once again.
I am hopeful that this question will be resolved locally, by the people of Hawai'i, working together as family, neighbors, and friends, to find a common vision where all of us can respect and celebrate the rich history and culture of Hawai'i alongside the peaceful exploration of the universe revealed by all of the observatories on Maunakea."
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - MarkP - 08-02-2019
Whether Hawaiians today consider Mauna Kea to be sacred is subjective.
Whether ancient Hawaiians considered Mauna Kea to be sacred and how that would affect activities thereon is not 100% knowable and is open to interpretation. There was stone age industry (basalt quarries) and at least one Hawaiian monarch welcomed astronomy but there is little doubt that many areas were viewed in a special light.
Whether there is a threat to the water table from the TMT is an absolute slam-dunk NO!
One problem I have is that the people who push an agenda that from the technical side is an insult to human intelligence want me to also take their word for the subjective stuff. What am I supposed to do, totally suspend my rational thought because of their racial and cultural biases? If I was going to do that I would have voted for Trump.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - tada - 08-02-2019
So far as"water protectors" go I always say the best way to honor the Mountain is to stop on the margin on the side of the road and pee in the scrub brush.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - randomq - 08-02-2019
The media is starting to figure out the anti-TMT emperor has no clothes...
https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/news/2019/08/01/mountain-of-lies-against-tmt.amp.html
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - dan d - 08-02-2019
Mountain of lies against TMT
A night trail scene on Hawaii's Mauna Kea volcano.
A night trail scene on Hawaii's Mauna Kea volcano.
JTSORRELL
A. Kam Napier, Editor-in-Chief
Aug 1, 2019, 2:06pm HST
One of the frustrating things about watching the Thirty Meter Telescope protests stifle construction are all the emotionally manipulative lies being used to justify the blockade. Chief among the mischaracterizations is the idea that the telescope is somehow going to make greedy developers rich.
None other than actor Leonardo DiCaprio did a drive-by social media hit this weekend advancing that whopper, by passing along Instagram posts from graphic designer Ashley Lukashevsky and ethically challenged former state Rep. Kaniela Ing. Lukashevsky, a part-time Hawaii resident who sells “Protect Mauna Kea” posters for $25 on her website, says: “Standing in solidarity with protestors on Mauna Kea, protecting the sacred aina from scientific imperialism. It breaks my heart to see indigenous people and land continue to be dismissed by the state of Hawaii and its wealthy developers.”
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Thousands head to Mauna Kea over the weekend as TMT protests continue
Ing’s post says the protests are “an environmental struggle against wealthy developers who seek free reign. It’s a microcosm of what’s happening across Hawaii and the world: profiteers exploiting fragile places without regards for the future. … Some things are more important than a quick buck — like our planet’s and people’s survival. That would be $1.3 billion well spent.”
That’s some pretty dramatic rhetoric. It’s also untrue.
There are no greedy developers. There is no profit, no quick buck, no profiteering. The $1.4 billion price tag is not proof that shadowy evil rich guys somewhere expect to get richer. It’s proof only that such a sophisticated, one-of-a-kind instrument is extremely complicated and expensive to build. And it’s being built, if it’s ever allowed to be built, by a nonprofit organization that basically has to beg for the money in the form of grants.
If you can’t oppose something without lying about it, then the thing you’re opposing literally does not exist. You’re opposing nothing but a figment of your imagination.
The only real profit to be made on Mauna Kea is knowledge.
Just last week, Hawaii Island’s W.M. Keck Observatory announced that observations made there of a star transiting a supermassive black hole near the center of our galaxy will play an important part in understanding how well Albert Einstein’s theories hold up. The observations have taken nearly a quarter century to perform and can shed light on how the universe itself operates.
This is not a luxury resort being built over the iwi. This is not Kahoolawe being bombed by the Navy. It’s a telescope. It’s something everyone can be proud of. The protestors want to decide for all of us, Hawaiian and non-Hawaiian alike, that learning new things is just “scientific imperialism” and something Hawaii wants no part of.
That’s the bottom line for protestor leader Kahookahi Kanuha, who has flat-out stated there is nothing to negotiate. Their position is final. No TMT. The Canary Islands can have it. Humanity can get smarter over there.
What a thing to be proud of.
As for the state, what can I say? Gov. David Ige has punted the negotiations, in which one side won’t negotiate, to Mayor Harry Kim, who doesn’t want the job and literally has no role to play. It is not his county government that is really being tested here.
Does Ige get this? Does anyone in the administration get it? Does the Legislature? The protestors are testing you. They think you’re kidding when you say TMT has a legal right to proceed. They think the entirety of state government is an illegitimate joke.
A million other citizens of Hawaii are waiting to see if the state will prove the protestors right, that state government is, in fact, a joke.
If the state caves, the protestors will celebrate, briefly, before the sad reality kicks in. Winning this will do nothing for them, nothing for Hawaii. They’ll be king of the hill on a mountain of spite.
Editor’s note: My phone extension is currently out of order as we upgrade our phones. To reach me with feedback, please email me at knapier@bizjournals.com.
Sorry random. Most peps wont click to read. I personally think its a true evaluation of whats transpiring.
I did the last 2 days by myself, showing my plackards, wallgreens noon, shower 5 pm.
Every day. If u feel strongly like i do come join.
Rain or rain NOON WALLGREENS. 5 PM SHOWER AND PAHOA HWY
I DONT DO social media . Perhaps some one can put this out there. 4 oz of honey, for those that show up
Aloha
Look for the extera lites flashin for safety
HPP
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - reni - 08-02-2019
our household just listened to NPR1 "Science Friday" Today's program featured the stand off on Mauna Kea.
17.5 minutes long . I do hope the link below works for all who care to listen (can also be found on their web site)
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/thirty-meter-telescope-mauna-kea-protests-ethics/
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - knieft - 08-02-2019
Trisha Watson? Sheesh.
“Colonial musical chairs”? Gag me with a fleshy polyp!
“Show of force”? Arrests that weren’t arrests.
I thought I really liked Science Friday, but that segment was horrific!
The subject title of this thread is getting more depressing every day.
Kirt