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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - dan d - 08-07-2019
Yes tom it would not be good for pro tmt sign wavers to be at the mk intersection.
But i had a guy swerve to hit me the other day at wallgreens and smile at me.
Pleanty middle fingers and, the cops came to say , we heard u had a weed cutting scycth
In ur car. I said yes, and a ski pole to hold up my banner, thankfully supplied by the
Nice lady Laura.
Ive hade plenty threats. Dont bother me.
Im here for the long run. Im here for STEM, for the kids.
Looks like the back door got shut in the Canaries, so buck it up, its gonna be here. Just. MIght take longer, what the heck its been 10 yrs allready.
I havent felt comfortable up there since we got chased out in 2015.
I can wait also
Aloha
HPP
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - ironyak - 08-07-2019
Current County costs for not keeping the road open exceed $250,000 (before overtime). Also, property taxes are due by August 20th, FYI.
https://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2019/08/07/video-testifiers-speak-on-county-mauna-kea-tmt-costs/
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalakoa - 08-07-2019
As a taxpayer, which group should I ask to pony up their share of expenses for the extra costs incurred?
As a taxpayer, which group shall I expect to pay up their fair share of lava recovery, hurricane relief, crowd control at the gay pride march, shutting down beach parks during king tides?
I've lost track of who is more special or which group deserves better treatment under the law.
It's pretty clear at this point that nothing substantive will be done to address the problem. Maybe the rallies help, but has anyone else noticed there's less Mauna Kea media coverage the longer this goes on? Almost as if people are starting to accept this new reality because so few are directly affected. (Anyone wanting to take issue with this statement should consider that a hypothetical 1000 people affected = about 0.5% of the island population.)
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - macuu222 - 08-07-2019
Thank You Tom for posting this link.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2367519763489885
Very smart man. I would suggest TMT opponents listen to his words very carefully.
Mileka Lincoln is one of very few "objective" reporters about TMT as the majority seem to be one sided on this issue.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - ironyak - 08-07-2019
Civil Beat did a more extensive poll on TMT support in he last several days with some good analysis on age, location, and ethnicity differences.
https://www.civilbeat.org/2019/08/civil-beat-poll-strong-support-for-tmt-but-little-love-for-ige/
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 08-07-2019
new reality... so few are directly affected
I’m on the mainland.
When I mention telescope protests, the general reaction is “what telescope?”
That’s with people who regularly follow the news, which currently covers dozens of people getting shot, real racism affecting millions, real prejudice, real problems. Not the misdirected accusations by a small contingent of campers who picked the TMT as an easy & convenient scapegoat instead of the agencies and entities responsible for their concerns.
The protesters are legends in their own minds.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Kaimana - 08-07-2019
Iron-When the sovereign nation is ceding the territory things are quite different. See South Carolina's ceding territory upon admission to the union, the Republic of Texas, etc... done through joint resolutions. More recently see the Vienna Convention for all the various means through which International agreements and laws are reached including through separate documents signifying the intent of both parties.
The argument that the U.S. Senate has not been counting votes correctly because it only requires a 2/3rds of yes votes (not 2/3rds of Senators "present" with some abstaining) is a new one to me. Be sure to let them know they've been doing it wrong for 225+ years - I'm sure they value your thoughts on the matter.
South Carolina was one of the original states. It was already part of the US territory when they ceded those lands. Of course a US joint resolution has authority within US territory.
The joint resolution for Texas was to adopt it as a state(which is a power explicitly given to congress in the constitution) and it had stipulations regarding Mexico's claims to Texas, so it's not the same as Hawaii. The Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo extinguished any claims Mexico had.
And for the last sentence. It explicitly states "senators present" in regards to how treaties are ratified in the constitution. Abstentions count towards the quorum. Why do you think they went with a joint-resolution instead of a treaty?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - ironyak - 08-07-2019
Kaimana - South Carolina was one of the original states. It was already part of the US territory when they ceded those lands.
Um, no. South Carolina ceded the territory on March 8, 1787 and didn't become a state in the union until May 23, 1788. To say that Territory already belonged to the United States is to grossly misunderstand the sovereignty of the individual states during the Articles of Confederation (see Article II), which had their own constitutions, presidents, etc...
The joint resolution for Texas was to adopt it as a state(which is a power explicitly given to congress in the constitution)
True - however it still was a sovereign Republic that was annexed to the U.S. through a joint resolution. So this whole "no treaty, no annexation" opinion seems to ignore this history. And Texas was a state 3 years before the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, so the treaty was just Mexico finally coming to terms with the reality of the previous annexation (along with having to cede much more land after the war).
It explicitly states "senators present" in regards to how treaties are ratified in the constitution. Abstentions count towards the quorum. Why do you think they went with a joint-resolution instead of a treaty?
Abstentions count toward having a quorum, but do not count towards the required majorities. This has been long established policy and is the general approach used at all levels of government, in Roberts Rules, etc... Sorry, but your interpretation of the Constitution doesn't make any difference to the long settled procedures of those responsible for actually making law.
https://www.senate.gov/CRSpubs/577d2a5e-2b47-4045-95fa-a76398e41461.pdf
They went with a Joint Resolution in 1898 as there was not the required votes previously in the Senate for a treaty. However, all these objections to a Joint Resolution were raised at the time and voted down.
Why is there so much fervor placed on a 125-year-old argument that failed then and has even less legal standing now?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - reni - 08-07-2019
HOTPE
"As a taxpayer, which group should I ask to pony up their share of expenses for the extra costs incurred?"
Who gives a rip which "group" YOU ask?
Taxpayers will foot the bills until taxpayers start asking hard questions of our STATE Government.
You won't . Your solution is to protest the COUNTY, over TMT ?
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Ironyak..."Current County costs for not keeping the road open exceed $250,000 (before overtime)."
I watched the entire live broadcast of the county council meeting yesterday. I disagree with your interpretation of "current " County costs. The topic was discussed, not completed & has been "recessed" until the next meeting.
If any of you sincerely want a clear picture of the true costs incurred, by which branch and who will ultimately foot the bill (county or State = us taxpayers ),please watch. You will also learn how postcards and new consultants are taking the money that could be helping our felow displaced Puna residents,
residents who are still struggling with trying to get back into their homes, (remember them?)
And see for yourselves, how bees, yes we need them, yes they matter, yes, the proposal before the county council deserved the unanimous vote it received , can garner so much more time than these other 2 topics were allowed,
please take the time to view the meeting yourselves and
notice how few of you taxpayers were there to testify.
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HOTPE....'The protesters are legends in their own minds."
Each group has them, unfortunately even here on Punatalk.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 08-07-2019
Who gives a rip which "group" YOU ask?
Yes I do.
Because if Hawaii Island property owners don’t pay their real estate taxes this month as a form of protest, we pay penalties & interest or have our property auctioned. Taxpayers aren’t on the hook.
If any of us block a public road, we’re ticketed, fined, maybe arrested and we pay the penalty not taxpayers. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation for protestors to accept some personal responsibility for their actions.
Henry Thoreau the father of civil disobedience was arrested and went to jail. He was fined. He wasn’t released until Ralph Waldo Emerson paid the fine. That’s the founding incident for the practice of civil disobedience. It is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.