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+--- Thread: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July (/showthread.php?tid=21045)
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RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - birdmove - 08-08-2019
quote:
Originally posted by TomK
Mayor Kim wants to open the access road but has been refused the authority to do so by Gov Ige. Kim shouldn't be the target here, it's Ige and the state that should be held responsible.
Thanks for this, Tom. I was not aware Kim was for keeping the roads open. If he doesn't have the authority to do it, then it just makes Ige look that much more useless.
Jon in Keaau/HPP
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - leilanidude - 08-08-2019
The observatories should file lawsuits against any/all of the organized protest groups, plus those named individuals who act as if they speak for the protestors.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Frank - 08-08-2019
quote:
Originally posted by Punatic007
Can't get the new instruments up Mauna Kea to view black holes due to the fringe element protesters forcefully blocking the road? What the heck is going on, are you kidding me? This is highly illegal and unacceptable. I hope the county and state are held accountable and the observatories are compensated for all losses. I hope the observatories continue to thrive and educate the world on numerous discoveries such as black holes. Can we even fathom the advances in scientific knowledge and understanding coming from technology further revealing the mystery of black holes? This is so huge and Harry Kim has the audacity to allow a circus encampment to prevent access to the observatories on Mauna Kea? And the governor also does nothing? Why can't Hawaii clean up it's own backyard? Do we have a political structure based on favoritism and nepotism? Is everyone cousins and blood is thicker than common decency, international legal and ethical responsibilities? My Hawaiian descent friends tell me if they say anything the fallout if terrible from the protesters. They are called traitors and harrassed pretty badly. We need the feds to step in.
bold by me...The Machine own the backyard...50 years of pruning in their back yard...Everyone in the machine is a favorite...It is evident the citizens love their machine, the citizens have voted the machine into places of power and control...give everyone in the machine a raise, the machine commission say "Hell yeah!"
eta...correct spelling
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - snorkle - 08-08-2019
This; from the Star Advertiser; Island Voices
Mauna Kea protest is new kind of indigenous world-making
By Nancie Caraway
As a non-Hawaiian observer, I applaud the respectful tone of the protectors. Theirs is a new strategy, radically more inclusive and welcoming than the nationalism of past sovereignty movements. As one who lived through the “Settler Go Home” flashpoints of 1990s Hawaiian identity politics, I welcome this transformation. All who live here are enriched by indigenous values — kokua (interdependence), sustainable reciprocity (aloha ‘aina) — that link native wisdom to other global indigenous renaissance movements.
Every citizen should have access to the pu‘uhuluhulu “open university” practiced on Mauna Kea. So many of us have never had the opportunity to think robustly and humanely about Hawaiian values and history. So many feeling people, people of conscience, hope for such a homecoming.
That’s why I’m disappointed to see mean-spirited characterizations of protectors in Star-Advertiser commentaries. Spasms of contempt claim Hawaiians want to take us back to the stone age, are hypocrites who drive cars and use cell phones, bully pro-Thirty Meter Telescope supporters, violate laws, show hostility to foreigners and hijack Hawaiian identity into an “identity based on victimhood” (“TMT supporters must be patient, but start taking action,” Star-Advertiser, Island Voices, July 24).
I find these claims lack context and misread new models in the struggle for indigenous rights. Mocking rhetoric stings in our island home, where our very survival depends on kokua and interdependence. TMT supporters who use such stereotypes evoke the “primitive savages” of colonial language alien to the traditions they aim to honor.
Others say Hawaiian resistance is unjustified. But the concerns of those at Mauna Kea are reflecting crises rather than causing them. The voices we’re hearing today expose structural inequalities that force Hawaiian diasporas to Las Vegas and beyond. They confront the monstrous wealth gap that burdens Hawaii’s people, denying families a living wage, a liveable society. The commercialization of our neighborhoods is proof that Hawaii’s touristnvestment- based economy shouts: “For sale to the highest bidder.”
It’s a call to awareness when they expose the indifference and rot of political leaders who violate every protocol of environmental carrying-capacity. Are protectors violating the law, as TMT supporters claim? The example of Martin Luther King Jr.’s 1963 “Letter from Birmingham City Jail” argues eloquently that peaceful dissenters against unjust laws “serve a higher principle of justice, concern for the welfare of the whole community” and are thus part of the very fabric of democracy. Further, there is the drumbeat that “not all Hawaiians agree” with the protectors. One respected expert, Hawaii Supreme Court Justice Michael Wilson, in his authoritative dissent in the court’s TMT decision wrote: “One of the most sacred resources of the Hawaiian culture loses its protection because it has previously undergone substantial adverse impact from prior development of telescopes.” Far from a mentality of “victimhood,” the protectors engage the razor’s edge of colonialism as a crossroads upon which to build a new equitable future. The wounds of modernity and history cannot be wished away. Nor can TMT’s symbolic potency be wished away. A convergence of commerce and spirit have made it so. Memory is a contemporary phenomenon: While concerned with the past, it happens in the present, as a form of working through past injury, resolving contemporary conflict and clearing the ground for new ways of living together. Today Mauna Kea is showing us a new kind of indigenous world-making. There is no claim to perfection. Things can easily go wrong. But the regenerating energy, the kapu aloha (non-violence) and aloha aina demonstrated by the protectors is a possibility worth supporting. This vision opens up new areas of life to political analysis and civic action. Mele, hula, teaching the Hawaiian language — all these cultural manifestations embody aloha and inspire the moral imagination.
ISLAND VOICES
Nancie Caraway holds a Ph.D. in political science and is the former first lady of Hawaii
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - Frank - 08-08-2019
Ironyak, I;m looking forward to your reply to Kaimana re: 2/3 vote...thanks to both of you for the discussion and education
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - HereOnThePrimalEdge - 08-08-2019
HOTPE....'The protesters are legends in their own minds."
Each group has them, unfortunately even here on Punatalk.
Yes they do.
But how does each group manifest their opinion?
* Do the legends on Punaweb prevent other members from using the forum, as the protestors have done with the astronomy community?
* Do the legends of Punaweb intentionally and continuously repeat false statements in an attempt to force their minority view on everyone?
We might have an occasional irritating troll or two here, but even they don't sink to the tactics above. The worst you can say about Punaweb Legends may be that other members may not agree with their opinion, they steam a little while and write a reply. But then afterward they can go about their business.
That's not true of the Mind Legends of Access Road. They are up there obstructing free passage, public access to a part of the island we all should be free to visit if we wish, and preventing people from reaching their place of work. Hundreds of local contractors don't receive a weekly paycheck. Every taxpayer on island or across the state will pay.
When's the last time someone on Punaweb cost you money, out of pocket?
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - kalakoa - 08-08-2019
The observatories should file lawsuits against any/all of the organized protest groups, plus those named individuals who act as if they speak for the protestors.
That would be an excellent start, but lawsuits need to be filed in every possible direction so that a few of them will survive technicalities imposed by the courts.
Off the top of my head:
- State for issuing the invalid permits
- Ige for claiming that construction can begin
- DHHL because access road is on "their" land
- County because it "owns" Saddle Road
- Kim generally
- UH failing to support its own educational programs
- UH making special concessions for students who wish to protest
- Finance Director for withholding/obsfucating direct cost information
- Everyone for violating the 14th Amendment
Note that some of the issues are similar to County's (mis)handling of the lava "recovery", which needs its own handful of lawsuits, some of which might well bolster the 14th Amendment claims.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - MarkP - 08-08-2019
"As a non-Hawaiian observer, I applaud the respectful tone of the protectors. Theirs is a new strategy, radically more inclusive and welcoming than the nationalism of past sovereignty movements. As one who lived through the “Settler Go Home” flashpoints of 1990s Hawaiian identity politics, I welcome this transformation. All who live here are enriched by indigenous values — kokua (interdependence), sustainable reciprocity (aloha ‘aina) — that link native wisdom to other global indigenous renaissance movements."
I'm just not feeling it. Also the current stated position of the protesters is starkly at odds with that of, for example, navigator Baybayan, who is clearly a sincere, educated, and thoughtful individual and who is probably a good deal more "Hawaiian" than most of the protesters up there now if you go by fluency in Hawaiian language and knowledge of traditional polynesian navigation. I don't know what percent Hawaiian he is. Personally I am made uncomfortable by people who make a big deal how genetically pure they are. Anyway here's a guy who has committed himself to learning in a way that most of the protesters can't hold a candle to. They aren't fit to carry his lunch and yet they denounce him.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - snorkle - 08-08-2019
The official position of the Protectors is "Kapu Aloha" and their leadership hasn't disrespected Baybayon to my knowledge. (There are certainly educated Kanaka who disagree with him.)
Although there are some Protectors who aren't adhering to the official "Kapu aloha" stance; there are also TMT supporters that definitely take the low road..............Like some punaweber statements that claim Keaukaha Hawaiians all have abandoned junk cars on their streets.
According to punaweb etiquette, I should refrain from claiming this attitude as racist, so please reach your own conclusions.
RE: TMT construction begins Monday 15 July - ironyak - 08-08-2019
As rainyjim has a hard time following the bouncing ball, I'll try to be brief.
@reni - The $250,000+ current costs were how BIVN summarized it. I agree there is much more info to be determined and/or obfuscated as needed.
@kaimana - what you've noted is that there are many ways to count a majority or super-majority. The Senate Voting and Quorum Procedures states "A simple majority vote is defined as at
least 50% plus one of the Senators voting, provided that a quorum is present.
The Constitution requires a two-thirds vote of the Senate to [...] give the Senate’s advice and consent to ratification of a treaty"
Basically, if you have quorum (50%+ of Senators present) then you need 2/3rds of the votes for giving consent to a treaty. The abstentions (not voting either by choice or by absence) do not factor into determining the required percentages. See the modern practice of voting "present".
What would be interesting would be if there was a record as to why the 26 Senate abstentions occurred on their Newlands Resolution vote. Last I checked, current Senators abstaining have to give a reason, but I'm not sure if that was Senate policy then. Here is a break down on how each member voted but it's not clear as to if the no votes were present but abstained, or were not present (abstention by absence).
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/55-2/s329
(there are some interesting related votes at the time such as adding an amendment requiring a majority vote from all males over 21 in Hawaii to support annexation, but that was voted down)
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes#session=158
Oh and for some fun reading on the contentious nature of the Congressional votes at the time see this June 1898 news article on the House vote:
https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=SDU18980616.2.60&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1
Or some of the speeches in the Congressional records (download the PDF and search Annexation of Hawaii)
https://books.google.com/books?id=w0XHMw73WJIC&pg=PA496